Discussion:
Different speaker wire lengths
(too old to reply)
w***@aol.com
2008-03-07 04:55:56 UTC
Permalink
I am reorganizing my stereo system in a different room on a different
floor , but if I want to avoid the speaker cable crossing the floor
over a high traffic and more visible area, I will need to route it
from the back of the room. In that layout, the left and right speaker
lengths are going to be different where the left is less than 5 ft and
the right is about 20 ft, if not 25 ft. Is that going to adversely
effect the quality of the sound?

Thank you in advance ...
v***@aol.com
2008-03-07 05:14:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by w***@aol.com
I am reorganizing my stereo system in a different room on a different
floor , but if I want to avoid the speaker cable crossing the floor
over a high traffic and more visible area, I will need to route it
from the back of the room. �In that layout, the left and right speaker
lengths are going to be different where the left is less than 5 ft and
the right is about 20 ft, if not 25 ft. �Is that going to adversely
effect the quality of the sound?
Thank you in advance ...
Yes. Just fold the longer length back upon itself.

Boon
George M. Middius
2008-03-07 05:47:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by w***@aol.com
I am reorganizing my stereo system in a different room on a different
floor , but if I want to avoid the speaker cable crossing the floor
over a high traffic and more visible area, I will need to route it
from the back of the room. In that layout, the left and right speaker
lengths are going to be different where the left is less than 5 ft and
the right is about 20 ft, if not 25 ft. Is that going to adversely
[affect] the quality of the sound?
You could deploy cables of the same length and not have to worry about it.
JBorg, Jr.
2008-03-07 07:52:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by w***@aol.com
I am reorganizing my stereo system in a different room on a different
floor , but if I want to avoid the speaker cable crossing the floor
over a high traffic and more visible area, I will need to route it
from the back of the room. In that layout, the left and right speaker
lengths are going to be different where the left is less than 5 ft and
the right is about 20 ft, if not 25 ft. Is that going to adversely
effect the quality of the sound?
Thank you in advance ...
You could just extend one as much to compensate for the other
until both are equal in lenght.
Soundhaspriority
2008-03-07 11:36:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by w***@aol.com
I am reorganizing my stereo system in a different room on a different
floor , but if I want to avoid the speaker cable crossing the floor
over a high traffic and more visible area, I will need to route it
from the back of the room. In that layout, the left and right speaker
lengths are going to be different where the left is less than 5 ft and
the right is about 20 ft, if not 25 ft. Is that going to adversely
effect the quality of the sound?
Thank you in advance ...
I've done some tests with skinny speaker cables that suggest this is the
case. However, if your speaker cables are well constructed, it may not be
significant.

Important: do not coil a cable. Fold it in a back and forth motion. If you
do coil, compress the coil so that it's a linear bundle.

Bob Morein
(310) 237-6511
v***@aol.com
2008-03-07 19:12:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Soundhaspriority
Post by w***@aol.com
I am reorganizing my stereo system in a different room on a different
floor , but if I want to avoid the speaker cable crossing the floor
over a high traffic and more visible area, I will need to route it
from the back of the room. �In that layout, the left and right speaker
lengths are going to be different where the left is less than 5 ft and
the right is about 20 ft, if not 25 ft. �Is that going to adversely
effect the quality of the sound?
Thank you in advance ...
I've done some tests with skinny speaker cables that suggest this is the
case. However, if your speaker cables are well constructed, it may not be
significant.
Important: do not coil a cable. Fold it in a back and forth motion. If you
do coil, compress the coil so that it's a linear bundle.
Don't "fold it," exactly. Bend radius is very important with cabling
of any kind to avoid a degradation in the signal. The general rule of
thumb is to keep the bend radius more than 4 times the width of the
cable jacket. So if your cable is 1/2" thick, keep the bend radius
greater than 2". Failing to do this will increase near end crosstalk
and attenuation as well.

Boon
dizzy
2008-03-07 23:00:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by v***@aol.com
Don't "fold it," exactly. Bend radius is very important with cabling
of any kind to avoid a degradation in the signal. The general rule of
thumb is to keep the bend radius more than 4 times the width of the
cable jacket. So if your cable is 1/2" thick, keep the bend radius
greater than 2". Failing to do this will increase near end crosstalk
and attenuation as well.
Where can I get some of what you've been smoking?
v***@aol.com
2008-03-08 02:23:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by dizzy
Post by v***@aol.com
Don't "fold it," exactly. Bend radius is very important with cabling
of any kind to avoid a degradation in the signal. �The general rule of
thumb is to keep the bend radius more than 4 times the width of the
cable jacket. �So if your cable is 1/2" thick, keep the bend radius
greater than 2". �Failing to do this will increase near end crosstalk
and attenuation as well.
Where can I get some of what you've been smoking?
I was a telecommunications technician for 8 years. I've been
certified with Belden and Wirescope. I've tested and measured
thousands of miles of cable. I've led training classes on cable
testing. And what are your qualifications?

Oh yeah...you fix bicycles in the Ozarks. LOL!

Boon
dizzy
2008-03-08 04:16:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by v***@aol.com
Post by dizzy
Post by v***@aol.com
Don't "fold it," exactly. Bend radius is very important with cabling
of any kind to avoid a degradation in the signal. ?The general rule of
thumb is to keep the bend radius more than 4 times the width of the
cable jacket. ?So if your cable is 1/2" thick, keep the bend radius
greater than 2". ?Failing to do this will increase near end crosstalk
and attenuation as well.
Where can I get some of what you've been smoking?
I was a telecommunications technician for 8 years. I've been
certified with Belden and Wirescope. I've tested and measured
thousands of miles of cable. I've led training classes on cable
testing. And what are your qualifications?
I'm a EE, and apparently not as high as you are at the moment.
Post by v***@aol.com
Oh yeah...you fix bicycles in the Ozarks. LOL!
Come on - share some of that stash.
v***@aol.com
2008-03-08 05:19:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by dizzy
Post by dizzy
Post by v***@aol.com
Don't "fold it," exactly. Bend radius is very important with cabling
of any kind to avoid a degradation in the signal. ?The general rule of
thumb is to keep the bend radius more than 4 times the width of the
cable jacket. ?So if your cable is 1/2" thick, keep the bend radius
greater than 2". ?Failing to do this will increase near end crosstalk
and attenuation as well.
Where can I get some of what you've been smoking?
I was a telecommunications technician for 8 years. �I've been
certified with Belden and Wirescope. �I've tested and measured
thousands of miles of cable. �I've led training classes on cable
testing. �And what are your qualifications?
I'm a EE, and apparently not as high as you are at the moment.
Oh yeah...you fix bicycles in the Ozarks. �LOL!
Come on - share some of that stash.
If you're an EE, why the bike shop in White Trash Heaven?

Boon
George M. Middius
2008-03-08 06:20:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by v***@aol.com
If you're an EE, why the bike shop in White Trash Heaven?
Usenet is full of nobodies who claim all kinds of incredible credentials.
dippy has gotten over his Kroopologism infection, but he still has a long
way to go before he sounds like a real person.
v***@aol.com
2008-03-08 08:16:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by George M. Middius
Post by v***@aol.com
If you're an EE, why the bike shop in White Trash Heaven?
Usenet is full of nobodies who claim all kinds of incredible credentials.
dippy has gotten over his Kroopologism infection, but he still has a long
way to go before he sounds like a real person.
I wonder Bill Winkis thinks of his EE now.

Boon
dizzy
2008-03-09 14:18:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by George M. Middius
Post by v***@aol.com
If you're an EE, why the bike shop in White Trash Heaven?
Usenet is full of nobodies who claim all kinds of incredible credentials.
dippy has gotten over his Kroopologism infection, but he still has a long
way to go before he sounds like a real person.
You should quit your glue habit, George, and instead smoke
vinylanach's stuff. I think it's better for you.
George M. Middius
2008-03-09 15:31:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by dizzy
Post by George M. Middius
Post by v***@aol.com
If you're an EE, why the bike shop in White Trash Heaven?
Usenet is full of nobodies who claim all kinds of incredible credentials.
dippy has gotten over his Kroopologism infection, but he still has a long
way to go before he sounds like a real person.
You should quit your glue habit, George, and instead smoke
vinylanach's stuff. I think it's better for you.
I just said something nice about you. Can't you accept a compliment
without shooting from the hip?
v***@aol.com
2008-03-09 17:34:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by dizzy
Post by George M. Middius
Post by v***@aol.com
If you're an EE, why the bike shop in White Trash Heaven?
Usenet is full of nobodies who claim all kinds of incredible credentials.
dippy has gotten over his Kroopologism infection, but he still has a long
way to go before he sounds like a real person.
You should quit your glue habit, George, and instead smoke
vinylanach's stuff. �I think it's better for you.
Does this mean you sniff glue, too? You know, because you like to
call people names based on your own shortcomings?

Now that you're almost 60, do you find it's impossible to get ride of
that spare tire, Dick?

Boon
dizzy
2008-03-09 21:52:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by v***@aol.com
Post by dizzy
Post by George M. Middius
Post by v***@aol.com
If you're an EE, why the bike shop in White Trash Heaven?
Usenet is full of nobodies who claim all kinds of incredible credentials.
dippy has gotten over his Kroopologism infection, but he still has a long
way to go before he sounds like a real person.
You should quit your glue habit, George, and instead smoke
vinylanach's stuff. ?I think it's better for you.
Does this mean you sniff glue, too? You know, because you like to
call people names based on your own shortcomings?
Now that you're almost 60, do you find it's impossible to get ride of
that spare tire, Dick?
Pass the bong. I am not this "Dick" person that you appearently think
I am.
v***@aol.com
2008-03-09 22:29:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by dizzy
Post by George M. Middius
Post by v***@aol.com
If you're an EE, why the bike shop in White Trash Heaven?
Usenet is full of nobodies who claim all kinds of incredible credentials.
dippy has gotten over his Kroopologism infection, but he still has a long
way to go before he sounds like a real person.
You should quit your glue habit, George, and instead smoke
vinylanach's stuff. ?I think it's better for you.
Does this mean you sniff glue, too? �You know, because you like to
call people names based on your own shortcomings?
Now that you're almost 60, do you find it's impossible to get ride of
that spare tire, Dick?
Pass the bong. �I am not this "Dick" person that you appearently think
I am.
Then who are you?

Boon
George M. Middius
2008-03-09 23:52:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by v***@aol.com
Post by v***@aol.com
Now that you're almost 60, do you find it's impossible to get ride of
that spare tire, Dick?
Pass the bong. ?I am not this "Dick" person that you appearently think
I am.
Then who are you?
He has an "EE" and he's way smarter than us literate types. What more do
you need to know?
v***@aol.com
2008-03-10 00:15:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by George M. Middius
Post by v***@aol.com
Post by v***@aol.com
Now that you're almost 60, do you find it's impossible to get ride of
that spare tire, Dick?
Pass the bong. ?I am not this "Dick" person that you appearently think
I am.
Then who are you?
He has an "EE" and he's way smarter than us literate types. What more do
you need to know?
Well, if he is Dickie, then it's time to crucify him. If he isn't, I
guess he gets a pass...this time.

Boon
George M. Middius
2008-03-10 01:28:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by v***@aol.com
Post by George M. Middius
Post by v***@aol.com
Then who are you?
He has an "EE" and he's way smarter than us literate types. What more do
you need to know?
Well, if he is Dickie, then it's time to crucify him.
Last time, after you outed him as Bicycle Repairman, he learned his
lesson.
Post by v***@aol.com
If he isn't, I guess he gets a pass...this time.
I think he is. But he is playing it cooler than he used to -- very few
enraged outbursts and blunt denunciations of the Kroo.
dizzy
2008-03-10 14:24:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by George M. Middius
Post by v***@aol.com
If he isn't, I guess he gets a pass...this time.
I think he is.
Well, think again. The Internet is a big place.
v***@aol.com
2008-03-10 18:43:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by George M. Middius
Post by v***@aol.com
If he isn't, I guess he gets a pass...this time.
I think he is.
Well, think again. �The Internet is a big place.
If you want a clean slate, I'll be more than happy to acknowledge it.
But I do want you to realize that my comments about cables weren't
meant to be specifically transferred back and forth between different
types, but to show universal problems that can occur when you bend or
crimp wire beyond its operating parameters. Are attentuation and
crosstalk specific problems that plague speaker cables? Or are you
asking for trouble in general when you fold and bend cables? Most
people here got that. You didn't. It's time to go beyond your
alleged EE and start understanding LANGUAGE better.

Boon
Arny Krueger
2008-03-11 02:56:07 UTC
Permalink
Are
attentuation and crosstalk specific problems that plague
speaker cables?
No.
Or are you asking for trouble in general
when you fold and bend cables?
No.
dizzy
2008-03-12 02:38:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by v***@aol.com
Or are you
asking for trouble in general when you fold and bend cables?
Most people here got that. You didn't.
Your attempt to save face by wrongly claiming that I did not "get"
something that most did is just making you look more pathetic than
ever, pothead.

I "get" just fine that you should not go out of your way to "fold and
bend cables" unless you have a good reason. But that is beside the
point of your erroneous statements.
Post by v***@aol.com
It's time to go beyond your
alleged EE and start understanding LANGUAGE better.
I understand LANGUAGE plenty well, pothead. You made some ridiculous,
factually incorrect statements, and I called you on it. My previous
posts explain the whats and whys of this quite clearly. On the other
hand, I have made no errors in this thread.

Now, take your beating like a man and buzz off.

(Why do I have the feeling that you'll take another hit, and attempt
to ridicule me for the plain (but true) statement above? So desperate
to save face, you are. "Save face at all costs. Never admit defeat.
Claim the other guy erred, too. Save face at all costs.")
Vinylanach
2008-03-12 03:25:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by dizzy
Post by v***@aol.com
Or are you
asking for trouble in general when you fold and bend cables? �
Most people here got that. �You didn't.
Your attempt to save face by wrongly claiming that I did not "get"
something that most did is just making you look more pathetic than
ever, pothead.
No...I maintain you missed the point. I still do.
Post by dizzy
I "get" just fine that you should not go out of your way to "fold and
bend cables" unless you have a good reason. �But that is beside the
point of your erroneous statements.
No, it really isn't.
Post by dizzy
Post by v***@aol.com
It's time to go beyond your
alleged EE and start understanding LANGUAGE better.
I understand LANGUAGE plenty well, pothead. �You made some ridiculous,
factually incorrect statements, and I called you on it. �My previous
posts explain the whats and whys of this quite clearly. �On the other
hand, I have made no errors in this thread.
Except for the part about me being a pothead.
Post by dizzy
Now, take your beating like a man and buzz off.
What beating? You slunk into this thread like a big pussy, making
obtuse references about weed. I had to drag the truth out of you. If
you had simply made your point in the beginning, you know, as if you
had a pair, I probably would have agreed with you and changed my
original statement. But no, you had to play the role of the anonymous
Internet asshole, and now you're whining like a bitch because i made
you accountable for what you said.
Post by dizzy
(Why do I have the feeling that you'll take another hit, and attempt
to ridicule me for the plain (but true) statement above?
Because you're an asshole, and you deserve to be smacked around.

�So desperate
Post by dizzy
to save face, you are. �"Save face at all costs. �Never admit defeat.
Claim the other guy erred, too. �Save face at all costs.")
Like I said, I would have changed my statement. In fact, I did so
earlier today in another forum. I told someone to remove the platter
and subplatter from the Rega before shipping. When someone called me
on it, I said:

"I had a brain fart when I mentioned removing the subplatter,
especially since I've been so hot on replacing it with an upgrade.
You're right about leaving it in place."

So there you go. You're wrong about two things now. Do you want to
keep going?

Boon
dizzy
2008-03-13 00:40:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Vinylanach
Post by dizzy
Post by v***@aol.com
Or are you
asking for trouble in general when you fold and bend cables? ?
Most people here got that. ?You didn't.
Your attempt to save face by wrongly claiming that I did not "get"
something that most did is just making you look more pathetic than
ever, pothead.
No...I maintain you missed the point. I still do.
Nope. You are making things up, in a pathetic attempt to save face.

I made no errors, and there is absolutely zero evidence that I did not
"get" something that "most people" did.
Post by Vinylanach
Post by dizzy
I "get" just fine that you should not go out of your way to "fold and
bend cables" unless you have a good reason. ?But that is beside the
point of your erroneous statements.
No, it really isn't.
Yes, it really is.

I commented specifically on your erroneous statements. I could not
speculate on what completely different issues, obvious or not, that
you might pull out of your ass at a later date.

For example, what, exactly did you mean by "asking for trouble in
general when you fold and bend cables"? Do you mean they'll break if
you bend them tightly-enough and often-enough? Well, duh, but why
would I comment on an OBVIOUS point like that, when you were making
stupid statements about "near end crosstalk and attenuation"

Tell us, *precisely* what "most people" got and that I did not. Show,
*precisely*, the evidence that indicates that "most people" got it and
that I did not. The fact that I focused my comments on precisely what
you wrote is not evidence of this, by the way.
Post by Vinylanach
Post by dizzy
Post by v***@aol.com
It's time to go beyond your
alleged EE and start understanding LANGUAGE better.
I understand LANGUAGE plenty well, pothead. ?You made some ridiculous,
factually incorrect statements, and I called you on it. ?My previous
posts explain the whats and whys of this quite clearly. ?On the other
hand, I have made no errors in this thread.
Except for the part about me being a pothead.
That was really meant seriously, too. (rolling eyes)

How about you accusing me of someone I am not?
Post by Vinylanach
Post by dizzy
Now, take your beating like a man and buzz off.
What beating? You slunk into this thread like a big pussy,
LOL! I kicked your ass up and down the block!

Listen. I've made no errors, while pointing-out your errors. That
makes me the winner.
Post by Vinylanach
making
obtuse references about weed. I had to drag the truth out of you.
The "truth" is that I was right and you were wrong. The "truth" is
that you compounded your technical errors by making personal errors.
Post by Vinylanach
If you had simply made your point in the beginning, you know, as if you
had a pair, I probably would have agreed with you and changed my
original statement. But no, you had to play the role of the anonymous
Internet asshole,
I began this thread with a very light-hearted "Where can I get some of
what you've been smoking?"

You are the typical Internet asshole, refusing to admit you were
wrong, when, in fact, you were. You are the typical Internet asshole,
lashing-out with irrelevant (and incorrect) claims about who I "really
am", so as to divert from the topic at hand.
Post by Vinylanach
and now you're whining like a bitch because i made
you accountable for what you said.
We can all see who is "whining like a bitch" and lashing-out in any
way possible in a LAME attempt to save face after getting his ass
kicked.

Look. You were wrong. I was right. It's as simple as that.

Or it would have been that simple, if you hadn't made a complete idiot
of yourself with your false accusations of who I am, followed by your
utterly embarrassing attempt at saving face now.
Post by Vinylanach
Post by dizzy
(Why do I have the feeling that you'll take another hit, and attempt
to ridicule me for the plain (but true) statement above?
Because you're an asshole,
Claims the pathetic asshole, lashing-out in his oh-so pathetic attempt
to save face.
Post by Vinylanach
and you deserve to be smacked around.
Who is going to do it? Certainly not you, with your seemingly endless
supply of incorrect, unsubstantiated claims.

You are embarrassing yourself.
Post by Vinylanach
Post by dizzy
?So desperate
to save face, you are. ?"Save face at all costs. ?Never admit defeat.
Claim the other guy erred, too. ?Save face at all costs.")
Like I said, I would have changed my statement.
So you claim.
Post by Vinylanach
In fact, I did so
earlier today in another forum. I told someone to remove the platter
and subplatter from the Rega before shipping. When someone called me
"I had a brain fart when I mentioned removing the subplatter,
especially since I've been so hot on replacing it with an upgrade.
You're right about leaving it in place."
The fact that you admitted error somewhere else does not prove that
you would have admitted error here, pothead.
Post by Vinylanach
So there you go. You're wrong about two things now.
Please list, precisely, the two things that I was "wrong" about, and
your evidence for this claim. (The pothead thing does not count, as
it was obviously not meant seriously.)

Nope. I've made zero errors in this thread. You, and the other hand,
made blatant errors of fact.

AND you, accused me, SERIOUSLY, of being someone I'm not.

Bottom line: I kicked you ass up and down the block, on ALL issues
that arose, and I continue to do so.

What do you come back with? Some pathetic, mealy-mouthed, ambiguous,
unsubstantiated, ridiculous, claim that "most people here" "got"
something that I did not.

I "get" everything about speaker wires plenty well. I'm an engineer,
and speaker wires are not rocket science.

Idiot.
Post by Vinylanach
Do you want to keep going?
Not really. Seeing you writhe and twist in the wind, desperate to
save face, is an almost nauseating sight.

"Save face at all costs. Never admit defeat.
Claim the other guy erred, too. Save face at all costs."
Vinylanach
2008-03-13 00:54:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by dizzy
Post by v***@aol.com
Or are you
asking for trouble in general when you fold and bend cables? ?
Most people here got that. ?You didn't.
Your attempt to save face by wrongly claiming that I did not "get"
something that most did is just making you look more pathetic than
ever, pothead.
No...I maintain you missed the point. �I still do.
Nope. �You are making things up, in a pathetic attempt to save face. �
Wow. That was a really long post you made. I didn't have time to
read it. With a quick glance, I could tell it just repeated "save
face" over and over again. Not really worthy material, in other
words.

Maybe we can pick this up some other time. But to tell the truth, I
only have time to crucify one anonymous Internet at a time. And to
tell you the truth, Windsor Fox may be the most ridiculous poster
since...well, Arny. I can't let this opportunity pass. I mean, you're
just marginally assclownish. But I have a chance to bury the King.

But don't be sad. I'll play with you again another day. Come up with
better material though.

Go ahead...have the last word.

Boon
Vinylanach
2008-03-13 01:39:44 UTC
Permalink
No, wait...I changed my mind. I'll explain it to you briefly.

You came onto this thread and accused me of using drugs. You failed
to identify yourself as an EE. You could have said, "Marc, as an EE,
I think you're wrong about this." Then you and I might have been able
to discuss this as adults. I might have conceded a few points, and
you might have had a better idea of what I meant by what I said.

Instead, you took the anonymous Internet asshole route. And now
you're whining that I need to have the last word. Well, the reason I
need to have the last word is because you're a douchebag. I don't let
douchebags have the last word. I let everyone know that the person
I'm dealing with is a douchebag and doesn't deserve the time of day
around here.

The only reason I thought you were someone else was because it had
already been mentioned by George that you were Dick Malesweski. If
George was wrong, then that's a subject for another day. That still
doesn't get you off the hook for calling me a pothead first.

Prove you're an EE, "Dizzy." Otherwise, kiss my ass, douchebag.

Boon
WindsorFox
2008-03-12 14:59:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by dizzy
Post by v***@aol.com
Or are you
asking for trouble in general when you fold and bend cables?
Most people here got that. You didn't.
Your attempt to save face by wrongly claiming that I did not "get"
something that most did is just making you look more pathetic than
ever, pothead.
I "get" just fine that you should not go out of your way to "fold and
bend cables" unless you have a good reason. But that is beside the
point of your erroneous statements.
Post by v***@aol.com
It's time to go beyond your
alleged EE and start understanding LANGUAGE better.
I understand LANGUAGE plenty well, pothead. You made some ridiculous,
factually incorrect statements, and I called you on it. My previous
posts explain the whats and whys of this quite clearly. On the other
hand, I have made no errors in this thread.
Now, take your beating like a man and buzz off.
(Why do I have the feeling that you'll take another hit, and attempt
to ridicule me for the plain (but true) statement above? So desperate
to save face, you are. "Save face at all costs. Never admit defeat.
Claim the other guy erred, too. Save face at all costs.")
Oooooh no, you MUST be wrong. He's a "professional writer" he knows
all and sees all. Seems to know a lot about MMPORPG's too. More than I
do in fact.

So I've lost track, the consensus on the OP is that the wire should
be the same length on both sides? And if so, how much difference in
lenth will make measurable difference?
--
"I'm intrigued by the thought that, later on,
the poster wont be able to find his question,
let alone an answer." - Backyard Mechanic

"It's well known that I post to UseNet while
sitting in the middle of a pentagram." - K.A. Cannon
Arny Krueger
2008-03-12 16:32:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by WindsorFox
So I've lost track, the consensus on the OP is that
the wire should be the same length on both sides?
Rarely is any harm done when the speaker wires are the same gauge and
length.

Rarely is any harm done when they differ a little.

If the speaker wires have enough copper per foot, rarely is any harm done
when they differ a lot.
Post by WindsorFox
And if so, how much difference in lenth will make measurable
difference?
Even tiny differences in length can be measured with a good ohm meter. OTOH,
my wire sizing methology

http://www.pcavtech.com/techtalk/wire_size/index.htm

is based on the idea that the speaker wire should cause no audible
difference. That means that no audible difference, even if one wire has zero
length.
WindsorFox<SS>
2008-03-12 18:15:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arny Krueger
Post by WindsorFox
So I've lost track, the consensus on the OP is that
the wire should be the same length on both sides?
Rarely is any harm done when the speaker wires are the same gauge and
length.
Rarely is any harm done when they differ a little.
If the speaker wires have enough copper per foot, rarely is any harm done
when they differ a lot.
Post by WindsorFox
And if so, how much difference in lenth will make measurable
difference?
Even tiny differences in length can be measured with a good ohm meter. OTOH,
my wire sizing methology
http://www.pcavtech.com/techtalk/wire_size/index.htm
is based on the idea that the speaker wire should cause no audible
difference. That means that no audible difference, even if one wire has zero
length.
Well mine is 12ga and maybe a 2' difference in lenth between L & R
and inside the wall.
--
"I'm intrigued by the thought that, later on,
the poster wont be able to find his question,
let alone an answer." - Backyard Mechanic

"It's well known that I post to UseNet while
sitting in the middle of a pentagram." - K.A. Cannon
Arny Krueger
2008-03-12 18:19:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by WindsorFox<SS>
Post by Arny Krueger
Post by WindsorFox
So I've lost track, the consensus on the OP is that
the wire should be the same length on both sides?
Rarely is any harm done when the speaker wires are the
same gauge and length.
Rarely is any harm done when they differ a little.
If the speaker wires have enough copper per foot, rarely
is any harm done when they differ a lot.
Post by WindsorFox
And if so, how much difference in lenth will make
measurable difference?
Even tiny differences in length can be measured with a
good ohm meter. OTOH, my wire sizing methology
http://www.pcavtech.com/techtalk/wire_size/index.htm
is based on the idea that the speaker wire should cause
no audible difference. That means that no audible
difference, even if one wire has zero length.
Well mine is 12ga and maybe a 2' difference in lenth
between L & R and inside the wall.
What speakers?

However, you are already on pretty safe ground.
WindsorFox<SS>
2008-03-12 21:24:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arny Krueger
Post by WindsorFox<SS>
Post by Arny Krueger
Post by WindsorFox
So I've lost track, the consensus on the OP is that
the wire should be the same length on both sides?
Rarely is any harm done when the speaker wires are the
same gauge and length.
Rarely is any harm done when they differ a little.
If the speaker wires have enough copper per foot, rarely
is any harm done when they differ a lot.
Post by WindsorFox
And if so, how much difference in lenth will make
measurable difference?
Even tiny differences in length can be measured with a
good ohm meter. OTOH, my wire sizing methology
http://www.pcavtech.com/techtalk/wire_size/index.htm
is based on the idea that the speaker wire should cause
no audible difference. That means that no audible
difference, even if one wire has zero length.
Well mine is 12ga and maybe a 2' difference in lenth
between L & R and inside the wall.
What speakers?
However, you are already on pretty safe ground.
Martin Logan reQuest, bi-wired.
--
"I'm intrigued by the thought that, later on,
the poster wont be able to find his question,
let alone an answer." - Backyard Mechanic

"It's well known that I post to UseNet while
sitting in the middle of a pentagram." - K.A. Cannon
George M. Middius
2008-03-12 21:38:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by WindsorFox<SS>
Martin Logan reQuest, bi-wired.
The Krooborg klaims that its spooge reinforces the solder. Have you tried
that trick yet?
Arny Krueger
2008-03-12 21:40:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by WindsorFox<SS>
Post by Arny Krueger
Post by WindsorFox<SS>
Post by Arny Krueger
Post by WindsorFox
So I've lost track, the consensus on the OP is that
the wire should be the same length on both sides?
Rarely is any harm done when the speaker wires are the
same gauge and length.
Rarely is any harm done when they differ a little.
If the speaker wires have enough copper per foot,
rarely is any harm done when they differ a lot.
Post by WindsorFox
And if so, how much difference in lenth will make
measurable difference?
Even tiny differences in length can be measured with a
good ohm meter. OTOH, my wire sizing methology
http://www.pcavtech.com/techtalk/wire_size/index.htm
is based on the idea that the speaker wire should cause
no audible difference. That means that no audible
difference, even if one wire has zero length.
Well mine is 12ga and maybe a 2' difference in lenth
between L & R and inside the wall.
What speakers?
However, you are already on pretty safe ground.
Martin Logan reQuest, bi-wired.
No problem with those.
Vinylanach
2008-03-12 17:17:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by dizzy
Post by v***@aol.com
Or are you
asking for trouble in general when you fold and bend cables? �
Most people here got that. �You didn't.
Your attempt to save face by wrongly claiming that I did not "get"
something that most did is just making you look more pathetic than
ever, pothead.
I "get" just fine that you should not go out of your way to "fold and
bend cables" unless you have a good reason. �But that is beside the
point of your erroneous statements.
Post by v***@aol.com
It's time to go beyond your
alleged EE and start understanding LANGUAGE better.
I understand LANGUAGE plenty well, pothead. �You made some ridiculous,
factually incorrect statements, and I called you on it. �My previous
posts explain the whats and whys of this quite clearly. �On the other
hand, I have made no errors in this thread.
Now, take your beating like a man and buzz off.
(Why do I have the feeling that you'll take another hit, and attempt
to ridicule me for the plain (but true) statement above? �So desperate
to save face, you are. �"Save face at all costs. �Never admit defeat.
Claim the other guy erred, too. �Save face at all costs.")
� � Oooooh no, you MUST be wrong. He's a "professional writer" he knows
all and sees all. Seems to know a lot about MMPORPG's too. More than I
do in fact.
What's an MMPORPG?

Boon
Arny Krueger
2008-03-12 17:36:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Vinylanach
Post by dizzy
Post by v***@aol.com
Or are you
asking for trouble in general when you fold and bend
cables? ? Most people here got that. ?You didn't.
Your attempt to save face by wrongly claiming that I
did not "get" something that most did is just making
you look more pathetic than ever, pothead.
I "get" just fine that you should not go out of your
way to "fold and bend cables" unless you have a good
reason. ?But that is beside the point of your erroneous
statements.
Post by v***@aol.com
It's time to go beyond your
alleged EE and start understanding LANGUAGE better.
I understand LANGUAGE plenty well, pothead. ?You made
some ridiculous, factually incorrect statements, and I
called you on it. ?My previous posts explain the whats
and whys of this quite clearly. ?On the other hand, I
have made no errors in this thread.
Now, take your beating like a man and buzz off.
(Why do I have the feeling that you'll take another
hit, and attempt to ridicule me for the plain (but
true) statement above? ?So desperate to save face, you
are. ?"Save face at all costs. ?Never admit defeat.
Claim the other guy erred, too. ?Save face at all
costs.")
? ? Oooooh no, you MUST be wrong. He's a "professional
writer" he knows all and sees all. Seems to know a lot
about MMPORPG's too. More than I do in fact.
What's an MMPORPG?
Massively multiplayer online role-playing game
George M. Middius
2008-03-12 17:59:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Vinylanach
Post by WindsorFox
Seems to know a lot about MMPORPG's too. More than I
do in fact.
What's an MMPORPG?
I'll bet the "RPG" doesn't stand for Rocket-Propelled Grenade.
Vinylanach
2008-03-12 18:21:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by George M. Middius
Post by Vinylanach
Post by WindsorFox
Seems to know a lot about MMPORPG's too. More than I
do in fact.
What's an MMPORPG?
I'll bet the "RPG" doesn't stand for Rocket-Propelled Grenade.
Arny knew what it meant. Big surprise there.

Boon
George M. Middius
2008-03-12 18:32:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Vinylanach
Post by George M. Middius
Post by Vinylanach
What's an MMPORPG?
I'll bet the "RPG" doesn't stand for Rocket-Propelled Grenade.
Arny knew what it meant. Big surprise there.
Thank's Mr. Philllups for, admitting Mr. Phellps that you, are to old to
learn knew tricks Mr. PHiiliips.
Vinylanach
2008-03-12 18:55:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by George M. Middius
Post by George M. Middius
Post by Vinylanach
What's an MMPORPG?
I'll bet the "RPG" doesn't stand for Rocket-Propelled Grenade.
Arny knew what it meant. �Big surprise there.
Thank's Mr. Philllups for, admitting Mr. Phellps that you, are to old to
learn knew tricks Mr. PHiiliips.
That reminds me...I think I know why it took Arny two years to find
out what audio magazine I worked for. He kept putting "Mark Philips"
in the search field.

Boon
WindsorFox<SS>
2008-03-12 21:25:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Vinylanach
Post by George M. Middius
Post by Vinylanach
Post by WindsorFox
Seems to know a lot about MMPORPG's too. More than I
do in fact.
What's an MMPORPG?
I'll bet the "RPG" doesn't stand for Rocket-Propelled Grenade.
Arny knew what it meant. Big surprise there.
Boon
Most anyone wit a double digit IQ would, or can at least look like
they do.
--
"I'm intrigued by the thought that, later on,
the poster wont be able to find his question,
let alone an answer." - Backyard Mechanic

"It's well known that I post to UseNet while
sitting in the middle of a pentagram." - K.A. Cannon
Arny Krueger
2008-03-12 21:41:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by WindsorFox<SS>
On Mar 12, 10:59?am, George M. Middius <cmndr _ george
Post by George M. Middius
Post by Vinylanach
Post by WindsorFox
Seems to know a lot about MMPORPG's too. More than I
do in fact.
What's an MMPORPG?
I'll bet the "RPG" doesn't stand for Rocket-Propelled
Grenade.
Arny knew what it meant. Big surprise there.
Most anyone wit a double digit IQ would, or can at
least look like they do.
But Marc didn't know, right?
Vinylanach
2008-03-12 23:53:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by George M. Middius
Post by Vinylanach
Post by WindsorFox
Seems to know a lot about MMPORPG's too. More than I
do in fact.
What's an MMPORPG?
I'll bet the "RPG" doesn't stand for Rocket-Propelled Grenade.
Arny knew what it meant.  Big surprise there.
Boon
   Most anyone wit a double digit IQ would, or can at least look like
they do.
Let me help you there:

"Almost anyone with a double-digit IQ would, or at least look they
would."

There, much better.

Okay, tell me again about IQs? LOL!

Boon
WindsorFox<SS>
2008-03-13 03:45:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Vinylanach
Post by WindsorFox<SS>
Post by Vinylanach
Post by George M. Middius
Post by Vinylanach
Post by WindsorFox
Seems to know a lot about MMPORPG's too. More than I
do in fact.
What's an MMPORPG?
I'll bet the "RPG" doesn't stand for Rocket-Propelled Grenade.
Arny knew what it meant. Big surprise there.
Boon
Most anyone wit a double digit IQ would, or can at least look like
they do.
"Almost anyone with a double-digit IQ would, or at least look they
would."
There, much better.
Okay, tell me again about IQs? LOL!
Boon
Oooo! y0ur such teh 1337!! (yawn)
--
"I'm intrigued by the thought that, later on,
the poster wont be able to find his question,
let alone an answer." - Backyard Mechanic

"It's well known that I post to UseNet while
sitting in the middle of a pentagram." - K.A. Cannon
Vinylanach
2008-03-13 03:55:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Vinylanach
Post by George M. Middius
Post by Vinylanach
Post by WindsorFox
Seems to know a lot about MMPORPG's too. More than I
do in fact.
What's an MMPORPG?
I'll bet the "RPG" doesn't stand for Rocket-Propelled Grenade.
Arny knew what it meant.  Big surprise there.
Boon
   Most anyone wit a double digit IQ would, or can at least look like
they do.
"Almost anyone with a double-digit IQ would, or at least look they
would."
There, much better.
Okay, tell me again about IQs?  LOL!
Boon
    Oooo! y0ur such teh 1337!!   (yawn)
No one knows what you mean. No one, that is, outside your little
clique of RPG nerds. In the real world, you continue to look like a
'tard.

Boon

WindsorFox<SS>
2008-03-12 18:16:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Vinylanach
� � Oooooh no, you MUST be wrong. He's a "professional writer" he knows
all and sees all. Seems to know a lot about MMPORPG's too. More than I
do in fact.
What's an MMPORPG?
Boon
You're the one making all the comments and acusing me of being one,
go do your own research.
--
"I'm intrigued by the thought that, later on,
the poster wont be able to find his question,
let alone an answer." - Backyard Mechanic

"It's well known that I post to UseNet while
sitting in the middle of a pentagram." - K.A. Cannon
Vinylanach
2008-03-12 18:20:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Vinylanach
� � Oooooh no, you MUST be wrong. He's a "professional writer" he knows
all and sees all. Seems to know a lot about MMPORPG's too. More than I
do in fact.
What's an MMPORPG?
Boon
    You're the one making all the comments and acusing me of being one,
go do your own research.
That would require effort. And making you look like a numbskull has
been pretty effortless so far!

If you don't want to explain the things that you say so that others
will understand, then that's your prerogative. But you can't squeal
"Victory!" if the others don't even know you're on the battlefield.

Boon
Clyde Slick
2008-03-12 21:27:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Vinylanach
What's an MMPORPG?
another self descriptive term for SS
mindless moron preoccupied over role playing games
v***@aol.com
2008-03-10 00:18:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by George M. Middius
Post by v***@aol.com
Post by v***@aol.com
Now that you're almost 60, do you find it's impossible to get ride of
that spare tire, Dick?
Pass the bong. ?I am not this "Dick" person that you appearently think
I am.
Then who are you?
He has an "EE" and he's way smarter than us literate types. What more do
you need to know?
I was talking to an engineer the other day, and he actually admitted
that getting a Ph.D in physics took a lot of fun out of life. He said
he used to be a happy go-lucky guy, but once he was taught to demand a
rigid, fact-based explanation for everything in the universe, it
changed his personality for the worse.

I think there's an important life lesson in there somewhere.

Boon
ScottW
2008-03-10 00:40:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by George M. Middius
Post by v***@aol.com
Post by v***@aol.com
Now that you're almost 60, do you find it's impossible to get ride of
that spare tire, Dick?
Pass the bong. ?I am not this "Dick" person that you appearently think
I am.
Then who are you?
He has an "EE" and he's way smarter than us literate types. What more do
you need to know?
I was talking to an engineer the other day, and he actually admitted
that getting a Ph.D in physics took a lot of fun out of life. He said
he used to be a happy go-lucky guy, but once he was taught to demand a
rigid, fact-based explanation for everything in the universe, it
changed his personality for the worse.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sounds like a guy who will struggle keeping his life and his work
separate no matter what he does.

Still knowing the extent of the thieves and vultures at our backs can
be troubling.

ScottW
George M. Middius
2008-03-10 01:30:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by v***@aol.com
Post by George M. Middius
He has an "EE" and he's way smarter than us literate types. What more do
you need to know?
I was talking to an engineer the other day, and he actually admitted
that getting a Ph.D in physics took a lot of fun out of life. He said
he used to be a happy go-lucky guy, but once he was taught to demand a
rigid, fact-based explanation for everything in the universe, it
changed his personality for the worse.
I think there's an important life lesson in there somewhere.
Could be. How about that bromide, "Be careful what you wish for..."

OTOH, anybody who forfeits his personality to a career choice sounds
pretty nerdy to begin with. That mocking phrase "Attack my science and you
attack me!" comes to mind.
Clyde Slick
2008-03-10 02:40:46 UTC
Permalink
On Mar 9, 9:30 pm, George M. Middius <cmndr _ george @ comcast . net>
wrote:


"Attack my turds and you attack me!"

A. Krooshit, 2008
v***@aol.com
2008-03-10 04:44:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by George M. Middius
Post by v***@aol.com
Post by George M. Middius
He has an "EE" and he's way smarter than us literate types. What more do
you need to know?
I was talking to an engineer the other day, and he actually admitted
that getting a Ph.D in physics took a lot of fun out of life. �He said
he used to be a happy go-lucky guy, but once he was taught to demand a
rigid, fact-based explanation for everything in the universe, it
changed his personality for the worse.
I think there's an important life lesson in there somewhere.
Could be. How about that bromide, "Be careful what you wish for..."
OTOH, anybody who forfeits his personality to a career choice sounds
pretty nerdy to begin with. That mocking phrase "Attack my science and you
attack me!" comes to mind.
I don't know if it was a conscious forfeit. It was probably more
hindsight than anything. There's a cool guy trying to get out, IMO.

There used to be an engineer who used to hang out here some years
back. In person, he was a nice enough guy, but he seemed unable to
carry on a decent conversation. Frankly, I don't care if you know the
secret to the Universe...if you can't discuss it in an interesting
manner, you're worthless to me. That's why people like Arny sit alone
at their computers all day.

Boon
George M. Middius
2008-03-10 04:58:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by v***@aol.com
There used to be an engineer who used to hang out here some years
back. In person, he was a nice enough guy, but he seemed unable to
carry on a decent conversation. Frankly, I don't care if you know the
secret to the Universe...if you can't discuss it in an interesting
manner, you're worthless to me.
RAO has had several who fit that description. What they care about most is
proving who knows the most formulas. Not who's contributed the most to the
consumer audio industry. These putzes have contributed zero, so they're
reduced to going on about who's the cheapest of the cheapskates. (We also
have some current playmates like them -- Scottie, Krooger, Poopie, etc.)
I call them 'borgs and 'borg-symps.
Post by v***@aol.com
That's why people like Arny sit alone
at their computers all day.
You're right, of course, but if you want a real laugh, consider the
Kroo's-eye point of view. Turdborg revealed last week that the more
Normals who despise him, or even learn of his revolting existence through
Usenet, the more pleased he is with his "accomplishment". For Krooger,
racking up an "enemies list" as thick as a telephone book would be the
ultimate "triumph".
Arny Krueger
2008-03-10 11:26:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by v***@aol.com
There used to be an engineer who used to hang out here
some years back. In person, he was a nice enough guy,
but he seemed unable to carry on a decent conversation.
Unable to carry on a decent conversation, you mean like you Marc?

Obviously Marc, you're no engineer.
Post by v***@aol.com
Frankly, I don't care if you know the secret to the
Universe...if you can't discuss it in an interesting
manner, you're worthless to me.
Trust me Marc, it is very hard to dumb down reality to your level.

Look what a mess you made of those computer cabling courses that you took.
And they are just short seminars!

My mind boggles at the thought of what a mess your pin heard would make of
even just one proper engineering course.
Post by v***@aol.com
That's why people like
Arny sit alone at their computers all day.
Only in your wasted little mind, Marc. I just spent six of the last 8 days
recording music festivals, no computer in sight.
ScottW
2008-03-08 17:23:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by dizzy
Post by dizzy
Post by v***@aol.com
Don't "fold it," exactly. Bend radius is very important with cabling
of any kind to avoid a degradation in the signal. ?The general rule of
thumb is to keep the bend radius more than 4 times the width of the
cable jacket. ?So if your cable is 1/2" thick, keep the bend radius
greater than 2". ?Failing to do this will increase near end crosstalk
and attenuation as well.
Where can I get some of what you've been smoking?
I was a telecommunications technician for 8 years. ?I've been
certified with Belden and Wirescope. ?I've tested and measured
thousands of miles of cable. ?I've led training classes on cable
testing. ?And what are your qualifications?
I'm a EE, and apparently not as high as you are at the moment.
Oh yeah...you fix bicycles in the Ozarks. ?LOL!
Come on - share some of that stash.
:If you're an EE, why the bike shop in White Trash Heaven?

I like bikes........

Anyway, the bend radius Marc recommends is very typical
as a design rule. For example,

http://www.okonite.com/engineering/bending-ratios.html

Now the question is why? And there the discussion has
gotten a little off the path IMO.
One reason is simple, at the core of any cable is copper.
A soft metal but still a metal and if you bend it too sharply
it will crack. When you bend a rod, one side is in compression,
the other side is in tension, and if you apply too much tension
over to short a distance, it will crack. Obviously a bunch of
cracks can degrade any signal, even DC.
Stranded cable is obviously more flexible than solid as it's a bunch
of small rods but it still has it's limits.
Other cables used in higher frequency applications have to
also maintain their impedance characteristics. Coax as
an example has bend radius far greater than the inner conductor
diameter would limit because the dielectric material between
the center and outer conductors is often soft and if you compress
it by bending the cable too sharply, you will change the distance between
conductors and that will change it's impedance and degrade
a high frequency signal. This is not relevant to the low frequency
range of analog audio signals. Signal degradation of high power
speaker level signals only comes
into consideration if you're fracturing the conductors in the cable
or damaging insulation to the point of creating a short.
Cable characteristic impededance is a non-issue for audio
frequency range signals. It if was,
you'd want to match your cable size all the way to the crossover
and have impedance controlled connectors etc,
yet all speaker manufacturers recommend different gauge
wire based on the length of the run.
Cross talk is an issue that comes into play if induced by long
parallel runs before amplification, but I've never heard it on
speaker runs and my surrounds have some very long parallel
runs.

I had a mildly interesting cable experience last night. I had moved
my Orions upstairs before installing the woofers as they're getting
heavy. Anyway, I was working on the speakers dead center of
my Infinities which I only listen to occasionally while playing pool
with friends. There is no seating in the "sweet spot" but I just
happened to be there installing some drivers and
I was playing Lucinda Williams Essence (a nicely recorded CD
IMO) and I noticed the sound stage was way left. The speaker
have pots for treble and midrange and I was thinking maybe they're
set different so I pulled the speakers out to see and I realized
when I'd set 'em up to check my refoaming I'd hooked up one
side with 12 gauge (left behind from my Advents) and the other
side with 18 gauge (as the 12 gauge run for the Advents was too short).
I'd forgotten about it. I didn't have any 12 gauge left so I added
a run of 16 to the 18 and while it didn't balance out perfectly,
its a lot better.

ScottW
v***@aol.com
2008-03-08 18:02:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by ScottW
Post by dizzy
Post by dizzy
Post by v***@aol.com
Don't "fold it," exactly. Bend radius is very important with cabling
of any kind to avoid a degradation in the signal. ?The general rule of
thumb is to keep the bend radius more than 4 times the width of the
cable jacket. ?So if your cable is 1/2" thick, keep the bend radius
greater than 2". ?Failing to do this will increase near end crosstalk
and attenuation as well.
Where can I get some of what you've been smoking?
I was a telecommunications technician for 8 years. ?I've been
certified with Belden and Wirescope. ?I've tested and measured
thousands of miles of cable. ?I've led training classes on cable
testing. ?And what are your qualifications?
I'm a EE, and apparently not as high as you are at the moment.
Oh yeah...you fix bicycles in the Ozarks. ?LOL!
Come on - share some of that stash.
:If you're an EE, why the bike shop in White Trash Heaven?
I like bikes........
Anyway, the bend radius Marc recommends is very typical
as a design rule. � For example,
http://www.okonite.com/engineering/bending-ratios.html
Now the question is why? And there the discussion has
gotten a little off the path IMO.
One reason is simple, at the core of any cable is copper.
A soft metal but still a metal and if you bend it too sharply
it will crack. �When you bend a rod, one side is in compression,
the other side is in tension, and if you apply too much tension
over to short a distance, it will crack. �Obviously a bunch of
cracks can degrade any signal, even DC.
Stranded cable is obviously more flexible than solid as it's a bunch
of small rods but it still has it's limits.
Other cables used in higher frequency applications have to
also maintain their impedance characteristics. �Coax as
an example has bend radius far greater than the inner conductor
diameter would limit because the dielectric material between
the center and outer conductors is often soft and if you compress
it by bending the cable too sharply, you will change the distance between
conductors and that will change it's impedance and degrade
a high frequency signal. �This is not relevant to the low frequency
range of analog audio signals. Signal degradation of high power
speaker level signals only comes
into consideration if you're fracturing the conductors in the cable
or damaging insulation to the point of creating a short.
Cable characteristic impededance is a non-issue for audio
frequency range signals. � It if was,
you'd want to match your cable size all the way to the crossover
and have impedance controlled connectors etc,
yet all speaker manufacturers recommend different gauge
wire based on the length of the run.
Cross talk is an issue that comes into play if induced by long
parallel runs before amplification, but I've never heard it on
speaker runs and my surrounds have some very long parallel
runs.
If you put a kink in a Cat 5e or Cat 6 cable, for instance, you'll
instantly get at least a 3 dB loss in signal strength. Put 2 or 3
kinks in a run, and it won't pass certification at all.

Whether exceeding a bend in cable radius will result in an audible
difference is debatable, I suppose. But why take the risk? It's easy
enough to comply with this design parameter.

Boon
ScottW
2008-03-08 18:27:13 UTC
Permalink
:If you put a kink in a Cat 5e or Cat 6 cable, for instance, you'll
:instantly get at least a 3 dB loss in signal strength. Put 2 or 3
:kinks in a run, and it won't pass certification at all.

Absolutely, but thats at 100 mHz for Cat 5e and upto 250
for CAT6 IIRC.

:Whether exceeding a bend in cable radius will result in an audible
:difference is debatable, I suppose. But why take the risk? It's easy
:enough to comply with this design parameter.

Absolutely. We supply cable harnesses that include 16 and 18
gauge stranded and we get 'em back broke all the time from
people kinking the cable. It's a big problem in harsh temp and vibe
environments because the kink starts a crack and the temp cycling
and vibe inevitably finishes it.
Soldered connectors are also more prone to cracking conductors
than crimps as well. The solders wick up the cable and it's not
as strong as copper so if you bend it and it cracks, The solder
crack will propogate into the copper as the solder concentrates
the stress at the crack. I still prefer soldered connections for
audio over crimp (mostly because proper crimp tools aren't
that cheap and few large gauge audio connectors have proper
crimp designs anyway) and it's easier to create good low resistance
reliable connections, provided you don't bend the cable
near the joint.

ScottW
v***@aol.com
2008-03-08 18:50:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by ScottW
:If you put a kink in a Cat 5e or Cat 6 cable, for instance, you'll
:instantly get at least a 3 dB loss in signal strength. �Put 2 or 3
:kinks in a run, and it won't pass certification at all.
Absolutely, but �thats at 100 mHz for Cat 5e and upto 250
for CAT6 IIRC.
:Whether exceeding a bend in cable radius will result in an audible
:difference is debatable, I suppose. �But why take the risk? �It's easy
:enough to comply with this design parameter.
Absolutely. �We supply cable harnesses that include 16 and 18
gauge stranded and we get 'em back �broke all the time from
people kinking the cable. �It's a big problem in harsh temp and vibe
environments because the kink starts a crack and the temp cycling
and vibe inevitably finishes it.
Soldered connectors are also more prone to cracking conductors
than crimps as well. �The solders wick up the cable and it's not
as strong as copper so if you bend it and it cracks, The solder
crack will propogate into the copper as the solder concentrates
the stress at the crack. �I still prefer soldered connections for
audio over crimp (mostly because proper crimp tools aren't
that cheap and few large gauge audio connectors have proper
crimp designs anyway) and it's easier to create good low resistance
reliable connections, provided you don't bend the cable
near the joint.
I've heard several EEEs say that the ideal way to wire an amplifier to
speakers is to solder directly the ends of the wires inside the amp
and speakers take the jacks and posts out of the equation. I know a
few obsessive audiophiles who have done this and swear by the results.

You'd probably see it done more often if more audiophiles knew how to
work a soldering gun.

Boon
George M. Middius
2008-03-08 19:09:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by v***@aol.com
I've heard several EEEs say that the ideal way to wire an amplifier to
speakers is to solder directly the ends of the wires inside the amp
and speakers take the jacks and posts out of the equation. I know a
few obsessive audiophiles who have done this and swear by the results.
You'd probably see it done more often if more audiophiles knew how to
work a soldering gun.
Not much more, I'd guess. What a $(*% mess. Same principle in the
dominance of CDs over vinyl. The hassle outweighs the gain for many (if
not most).

I do admire the way you trained Scottie to queue up records and fuss with
a turntable, though. If you can teach him how to wield a soldering iron
without slobbering on it, you'll be eligible for a Newman prize.
Soundhaspriority
2008-03-08 20:47:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by ScottW
:If you put a kink in a Cat 5e or Cat 6 cable, for instance, you'll
:instantly get at least a 3 dB loss in signal strength. ?Put 2 or 3
:kinks in a run, and it won't pass certification at all.
Absolutely, but ?thats at 100 mHz for Cat 5e and upto 250
for CAT6 IIRC.
:Whether exceeding a bend in cable radius will result in an audible
:difference is debatable, I suppose. ?But why take the risk? ?It's easy
:enough to comply with this design parameter.
Absolutely. ?We supply cable harnesses that include 16 and 18
gauge stranded and we get 'em back ?broke all the time from
people kinking the cable. ?It's a big problem in harsh temp and vibe
environments because the kink starts a crack and the temp cycling
and vibe inevitably finishes it.
Soldered connectors are also more prone to cracking conductors
than crimps as well. ?The solders wick up the cable and it's not
as strong as copper so if you bend it and it cracks, The solder
crack will propogate into the copper as the solder concentrates
the stress at the crack. ?I still prefer soldered connections for
audio over crimp (mostly because proper crimp tools aren't
that cheap and few large gauge audio connectors have proper
crimp designs anyway) and it's easier to create good low resistance
reliable connections, provided you don't bend the cable
near the joint.
I've heard several EEEs say that the ideal way to wire an amplifier to
speakers is to solder directly the ends of the wires inside the amp
and speakers take the jacks and posts out of the equation. I know a
few obsessive audiophiles who have done this and swear by the results.

You'd probably see it done more often if more audiophiles knew how to
work a soldering gun.

Boon
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Perhaps, but I'm happy with well-tightened lug nuts. I use bananas, too, but
I make sure the contact force is reasonably high.

Bob Morein
(310) 237-6511
ScottW
2008-03-08 23:02:22 UTC
Permalink
<***@aol.com> wrote in message news:43dbfd89-1acb-402e-b8f6-***@i12g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 8, 10:27?am, "ScottW" <***@hotmail.com> wrote:

I've heard several EEEs say that the ideal way to wire an amplifier to
speakers is to solder directly the ends of the wires inside the amp
and speakers take the jacks and posts out of the equation. I know a
few obsessive audiophiles who have done this and swear by the results.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You won't suffer loose connections, that's for sure.
The plastic binding posts on my quads and the external filter
boxes I built drive me nuts. I'm gonna replace 'em with the locking
banana plugs I got from OC speaker.
I've been wiring my speakers all afternoon, Linkwitz recomends a
solder terminal strip. Easy enough to hook up but a pain to unhook.
I'm using banana/binding posts with the locking banana plugs
but I'm not using the cheesy little
compression screw wire attach, I'm soldering.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You'd probably see it done more often if more audiophiles knew how to
work a soldering gun.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It's really easy if you get a decent station. The cheap little pencils they
sell at radio shack don't have enough power so the second you touch
any mass, they cool below melting point. Then you're holding the iron
on waiting for it to heat everything up. That just oxidizes stuff like
copper and makes it harder to wet, you need flux etc.,
and for components and PWBs too long is as bad as too hot.
I bought an old Weller at a surplus shop
years ago for $40. Nothing fancy, isn't even adjustable but it
does the job well.

ScottW
Bret Ludwig
2008-03-08 23:31:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by ScottW
It's really easy if you get a decent station. The cheap little pencils they
sell at radio shack don't have enough power so the second you touch
any mass, they cool below melting point. Then you're holding the iron
on waiting for it to heat everything up. That just oxidizes stuff like
copper and makes it harder to wet, you need flux etc.,
and for components and PWBs too long is as bad as too hot.
I bought an old Weller at a surplus shop
years ago for $40. Nothing fancy, isn't even adjustable but it
does the job well.
If you are ONLY going to solder lugs and leaded parts (long E there,
lead as in the wire part-in front of "follow") like in the 50s the
uncontrolled iron works. For any PCB work where lifted pads are
unacceptable-i.e. if you want the damn thing to work for any length of
time-you need a tempco iron. Weller WTCPT is the cheapest and pretty
foolproof until the magnet switch in the handle sticks and the tip
gets really hot, but if you can recognize this condition it's OK.
Metcal is the Rolls Royce but the tips are expensive-$20-50 each.
Adjustable Weller stations, Hakko or Hexacon are in the middle.

Uncontrolled irons can be used with a tip temp gauge and a variac or
bench DC supply by the patient and careful. I'm spoiled and so won't
bother. I have female friends that are assemblers at the only big
legit electronics plant in my area and they use Hakko. So I do too as
I have a supply of once-used tips and parts.
ScottW
2008-03-09 00:05:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bret Ludwig
Post by ScottW
It's really easy if you get a decent station. The cheap little pencils they
sell at radio shack don't have enough power so the second you touch
any mass, they cool below melting point. Then you're holding the iron
on waiting for it to heat everything up. That just oxidizes stuff like
copper and makes it harder to wet, you need flux etc.,
and for components and PWBs too long is as bad as too hot.
I bought an old Weller at a surplus shop
years ago for $40. Nothing fancy, isn't even adjustable but it
does the job well.
If you are ONLY going to solder lugs and leaded parts (long E there,
lead as in the wire part-in front of "follow") like in the 50s the
uncontrolled iron works.
Read carefully. I didn't say it was not regulated.
I said set point isn't adjustable.

ScottW
Bret Ludwig
2008-03-08 23:21:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by v***@aol.com
Post by ScottW
:If you put a kink in a Cat 5e or Cat 6 cable, for instance, you'll
:instantly get at least a 3 dB loss in signal strength. �Put 2 or 3
:kinks in a run, and it won't pass certification at all.
Absolutely, but �thats at 100 mHz for Cat 5e and upto 250
for CAT6 IIRC.
:Whether exceeding a bend in cable radius will result in an audible
:difference is debatable, I suppose. �But why take the risk? �It's easy
:enough to comply with this design parameter.
Absolutely. �We supply cable harnesses that include 16 and 18
gauge stranded and we get 'em back �broke all the time from
people kinking the cable. �It's a big problem in harsh temp and vibe
environments because the kink starts a crack and the temp cycling
and vibe inevitably finishes it.
Soldered connectors are also more prone to cracking conductors
than crimps as well. �The solders wick up the cable and it's not
as strong as copper so if you bend it and it cracks, The solder
crack will propogate into the copper as the solder concentrates
the stress at the crack. �I still prefer soldered connections for
audio over crimp (mostly because proper crimp tools aren't
that cheap and few large gauge audio connectors have proper
crimp designs anyway) and it's easier to create good low resistance
reliable connections, provided you don't bend the cable
near the joint.
I've heard several EEEs say that the ideal way to wire an amplifier to
speakers is to solder directly the ends of the wires inside the amp
and speakers take the jacks and posts out of the equation. I know a
few obsessive audiophiles who have done this and swear by the results.
You'd probably see it done more often if more audiophiles knew how to
work a soldering gun.
If you can not solder you are a poser and not an audiophile.

First step: Throw the "soldering gun" in the dumpster and buy a good
temperature controlled iron set. Weller, Hakko, metcal, Hexacon are
legitimate.

You'll also need a selection of tips, sponge, DI water bottle, RMA
flux, cleaning fluids in a dispenser bottle and some acid brushes
cut down to a nice nappy length to scrub with.
Bret Ludwig
2008-03-08 23:34:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by ScottW
:If you put a kink in a Cat 5e or Cat 6 cable, for instance, you'll
:instantly get at least a 3 dB loss in signal strength. Put 2 or 3
:kinks in a run, and it won't pass certification at all.
Absolutely, but thats at 100 mHz for Cat 5e and upto 250
for CAT6 IIRC.
:Whether exceeding a bend in cable radius will result in an audible
:difference is debatable, I suppose. But why take the risk? It's easy
:enough to comply with this design parameter.
Cat 5/6 are balanced characteristic impedance controlled standards
for what is really RF use. At audio, nothing but a open or short in
these cables is going to matter unless you are dealing with lengths in
miles.
v***@aol.com
2008-03-09 01:19:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by ScottW
:If you put a kink in a Cat 5e or Cat 6 cable, for instance, you'll
:instantly get at least a 3 dB loss in signal strength. �Put 2 or 3
:kinks in a run, and it won't pass certification at all.
Absolutely, but �thats at 100 mHz for Cat 5e and upto 250
for CAT6 IIRC.
:Whether exceeding a bend in cable radius will result in an audible
:difference is debatable, I suppose. �But why take the risk? �It's easy
:enough to comply with this design parameter.
�Cat 5/6 are balanced characteristic impedance controlled standards
for what is really RF use. At audio, nothing but a open or short in
these cables is going to matter unless you are dealing with lengths in
miles.-
Miles? You're thinking of fiber optics. Cat 5 and 6 should not be
used in lengths longer than 300 feet.

Boon
Eeyore
2008-03-09 02:03:56 UTC
Permalink
At audio, nothing but a open or short in these cables is going to matter unless
you are dealing > with lengths in miles.-
Miles? You're thinking of fiber optics. Cat 5 and 6 should not be
used in lengths longer than 300 feet.
He was talking about audio wavelengths in relation to transmission line behaviour.

Graham
Arny Krueger
2008-03-09 02:51:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by ScottW
Post by v***@aol.com
If you put a kink in a Cat 5e or Cat 6 cable, for
instance, you'll instantly get at least a 3 dB loss in
signal strength. Put 2 or 3 kinks in a run, and it
won't pass certification at all.
Absolutely, but thats at 100 mHz for Cat 5e and upto 250
for CAT6 IIRC.
Agreed. At audio frequencies, it is meaningless.
George M. Middius
2008-03-08 19:05:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by ScottW
I had a mildly interesting cable experience last night.
Where did you lay it, Scooter? Did you remember to cover it up with dirt?
dizzy
2008-03-09 14:14:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by ScottW
Anyway, the bend radius Marc recommends is very typical
as a design rule.
Maybe, but it's a silly thing to "caution" anyone about, as if there's
really a worry about "increased near end crosstalk and attenuation" in
a speaker cable if this "design rule" is not followed...
v***@aol.com
2008-03-09 17:29:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by dizzy
Post by ScottW
Anyway, the bend radius Marc recommends is very typical
as a design rule. �
Maybe, but it's a silly thing to "caution" anyone about, as if there's
really a worry about "increased near end crosstalk and attenuation" in
a speaker cable if this "design rule" is not followed...
Then go ahead and fold and crimp your speaker cables. See if it makes
a difference. Personally, I think it's a silly thing to object to
what I said, since it's common sense. In fact, I just got
confirmation on that from 2 EEEs.

So, Dick...why would an EE wind up living in Rogers, Arkansas with his
parents when he's in his 50s? Are the job opportunities for EEs
better than in Massachusetts? Or just for EEs who have utterly failed
at being an EE, and fall back on fixing bicycles for $24 an hour?

Boon
Arny Krueger
2008-03-09 17:50:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by v***@aol.com
Post by dizzy
Post by ScottW
Anyway, the bend radius Marc recommends is very typical
as a design rule. ?
Maybe, but it's a silly thing to "caution" anyone about,
as if there's really a worry about "increased near end
crosstalk and attenuation" in a speaker cable if this
"design rule" is not followed...
Then go ahead and fold and crimp your speaker cables. See
if it makes a difference. Personally, I think it's a
silly thing to object to what I said, since it's common
sense. In fact, I just got confirmation on that from 2
EEEs.
Marc is so out of it that he can't even spell EE right. ;-)
Post by v***@aol.com
So, Dick...why would an EE wind up living in Rogers,
Arkansas with his parents when he's in his 50s?
Who cares?
Post by v***@aol.com
Are the job opportunities for EEs better than in Massachusetts?
Who knows?
Post by v***@aol.com
Or just for EEs who have utterly failed at being an EE,
and fall back on fixing bicycles for $24 an hour?
$24 an hour puts him way past a lot of communications technicans, and oh by
the way Marc, you lost that job due to incopetence, right?
Clyde Slick
2008-03-09 19:34:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arny Krueger
$24 an hour puts him way past a lot of communications technicans, and oh by
the way Marc, you lost that job due to incopetence, right?
no, they canned him for poor spelling, LOL!!!!
v***@aol.com
2008-03-09 21:36:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clyde Slick
Post by Arny Krueger
$24 an hour puts him way past a lot of communications technicans, and oh by
the way Marc, you lost that job due to incopetence, right?
no, they canned him for poor spelling, LOL!!!!
I'm still not sure what incopetence means. If it means "the
opportunity to fulfill your dreams by doing what you've always wanted
to do," then Arny may actually be right for once. He is wrong about
the $24, though.

Boon
Clyde Slick
2008-03-09 21:38:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by v***@aol.com
Post by Clyde Slick
Post by Arny Krueger
$24 an hour puts him way past a lot of communications technicans, and oh by
the way Marc, you lost that job due to incopetence, right?
no, they canned him for poor spelling, LOL!!!!
I'm still not sure what incopetence means. If it means "the
opportunity to fulfill your dreams by doing what you've always wanted
to do," then Arny may actually be right for once. He is wrong about
the $24, though.
Boon
I once calculated Clerkie's average wage. It was $3.00 per hour
(assuming
he wasn't plagiarizing). But unfortunately, he lost that gig.
George M. Middius
2008-03-09 23:51:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clyde Slick
I once calculated Clerkie's average wage. It was $3.00 per hour
(assuming he wasn't plagiarizing). But unfortunately, he lost that gig.
Harold didn't do his crusading for the money. It was always about becoming
a martyr and going to heaven to earn his reward.
dizzy
2008-03-09 21:51:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by v***@aol.com
Post by dizzy
Post by ScottW
Anyway, the bend radius Marc recommends is very typical
as a design rule. ?
Maybe, but it's a silly thing to "caution" anyone about, as if there's
really a worry about "increased near end crosstalk and attenuation" in
a speaker cable if this "design rule" is not followed...
Then go ahead and fold and crimp your speaker cables. See if it makes
a difference.
A silly suggestion, and a waste of my time.
Post by v***@aol.com
Personally, I think it's a silly thing to object to
what I said, since it's common sense.
LOL. In regards to speaker cable, your "increased near end crosstalk
and attenuation" was complete nonsense.

"Common sense" indeed.
Post by v***@aol.com
In fact, I just got confirmation on that from 2 EEEs.
Sure you did, pothead.
Post by v***@aol.com
So, Dick...
My name is not Dick, pothead. Put down the bong.
Post by v***@aol.com
why would an EE wind up living in Rogers, Arkansas with his
parents when he's in his 50s? Are the job opportunities for EEs
better than in Massachusetts? Or just for EEs who have utterly failed
at being an EE, and fall back on fixing bicycles for $24 an hour?
How should I know? I've never even been to Massachusetts. Perhaps
you should ask your Dick.
Arny Krueger
2008-03-09 23:18:11 UTC
Permalink
Perhaps you should ask your Dick.
Everybody knows that Marc is Dick-less. ;-)
Clyde Slick
2008-03-09 23:40:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arny Krueger
 Perhaps you should ask your Dick.
Everybody knows that Marc is Dick-less. ;-)
"At least" he doesn't have shit for brains.
Arny Krueger
2008-03-10 11:27:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clyde Slick
Post by Arny Krueger
Perhaps you should ask your Dick.
Everybody knows that Marc is Dick-less. ;-)
"At least" he doesn't have shit for brains.
Agreed that Marc is less useless than the Middiot or you Art.
George M. Middius
2008-03-08 04:16:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by v***@aol.com
And what are your qualifications?
Oh yeah...you fix bicycles in the Ozarks. LOL!
I heard he took over his daddy's backyard horticultural enterprise.
No more bicycle repairman!
v***@aol.com
2008-03-08 05:20:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by George M. Middius
Post by v***@aol.com
And what are your qualifications?
Oh yeah...you fix bicycles in the Ozarks. �LOL!
I heard he took over his daddy's backyard horticultural enterprise.
No more bicycle repairman!
In other words, he doesn't need what I'm smoking...he has plenty of
his own. That explains everything.

Boon
Soundhaspriority
2008-03-08 20:45:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by dizzy
Post by v***@aol.com
Don't "fold it," exactly. Bend radius is very important with cabling
of any kind to avoid a degradation in the signal. ?The general rule of
thumb is to keep the bend radius more than 4 times the width of the
cable jacket. ?So if your cable is 1/2" thick, keep the bend radius
greater than 2". ?Failing to do this will increase near end crosstalk
and attenuation as well.
Where can I get some of what you've been smoking?
I was a telecommunications technician for 8 years. I've been
certified with Belden and Wirescope. I've tested and measured
thousands of miles of cable. I've led training classes on cable
testing. And what are your qualifications?
Arny Krueger
2008-03-09 02:50:07 UTC
Permalink
On Mar 7, 3:36?am, "Soundhaspriority"
Post by Soundhaspriority
Post by w***@aol.com
I am reorganizing my stereo system in a different room
on a different floor , but if I want to avoid the
speaker cable crossing the floor over a high traffic
and more visible area, I will need to route it from the
back of the room. ?In that layout, the left and right
speaker lengths are going to be different where the
left is less than 5 ft and the right is about 20 ft, if
not 25 ft. ?Is that going to adversely effect the
quality of the sound?
Thank you in advance ...
I've done some tests with skinny speaker cables that
suggest this is the case. However, if your speaker
cables are well constructed, it may not be significant.
Important: do not coil a cable. Fold it in a back and
forth motion. If you do coil, compress the coil so that
it's a linear bundle.
Don't "fold it," exactly. Bend radius is very important
with cabling of any kind to avoid a degradation in the
signal. The general rule of thumb is to keep the bend
radius more than 4 times the width of the cable jacket.
So if your cable is 1/2" thick, keep the bend radius
greater than 2". Failing to do this will increase near
end crosstalk and attenuation as well.
Marc seems to believe that all cable and cable applications are the same.

It turns out that CAT-5 and similar cables can be sensitive to bending and
kinking when they are used for computer networking. Computer networking use
of this cable can involve frequencies in the 1,000 MHz range and above. At
those frequencies, a certain amount of careful mouth holding can be
involved.

When you put a sharp bend or kink into a CAT-5 cable, its characteristic
impedance is changed at the point of kinking because the spatial
interelationships inside the cable are changed. The cable is prone to this
kind of problem partially because it is twisted pair. Other kinds of cable
is less susceptible to this problem. Cable operated at audio frequencies,
which are far, far lower, are immune to this problem.

What Marc doesn't seem to know is that the behavior of cable is dependent on
what kind of signals you are using it for, and how the cable is made.

This is a classic case of "A little knowlege is a dangerous thing". Marc is
nothing like a well-trained communcations technican. Even a community
college class in basic electronics would disabuse him of this weirdness.
dizzy
2008-03-09 14:21:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arny Krueger
Post by v***@aol.com
Don't "fold it," exactly. Bend radius is very important
with cabling of any kind to avoid a degradation in the
signal. The general rule of thumb is to keep the bend
radius more than 4 times the width of the cable jacket.
So if your cable is 1/2" thick, keep the bend radius
greater than 2". Failing to do this will increase near
end crosstalk and attenuation as well.
Marc seems to believe that all cable and cable applications are the same.
It turns out that CAT-5 and similar cables can be sensitive to bending and
kinking when they are used for computer networking. Computer networking use
of this cable can involve frequencies in the 1,000 MHz range and above.
Next thing you know, the pothead will be raving about "skin effect".
Arny Krueger
2008-03-09 17:11:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by dizzy
Post by Arny Krueger
Post by v***@aol.com
Don't "fold it," exactly. Bend radius is very important
with cabling of any kind to avoid a degradation in the
signal. The general rule of thumb is to keep the bend
radius more than 4 times the width of the cable jacket.
So if your cable is 1/2" thick, keep the bend radius
greater than 2". Failing to do this will increase near
end crosstalk and attenuation as well.
Marc seems to believe that all cable and cable
applications are the same.
It turns out that CAT-5 and similar cables can be
sensitive to bending and kinking when they are used for
computer networking. Computer networking use of this
cable can involve frequencies in the 1,000 MHz range and
above.
Next thing you know, the pothead will be raving about
"skin effect".
Could be.

I'm sure Marc can find any number of high end vendors who will tell him what
to say about skin effect and audio cables.
v***@aol.com
2008-03-09 17:31:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by dizzy
Post by Arny Krueger
Post by v***@aol.com
Don't "fold it," exactly. Bend radius is very important
with cabling of any kind to avoid a degradation in the
signal. �The general rule of thumb is to keep the bend
radius more than 4 times the width of the cable jacket.
So if your cable is 1/2" thick, keep the bend radius
greater than 2". �Failing to do this will increase near
end crosstalk and attenuation as well.
Marc seems to believe that all cable and cable applications are the same.
It turns out that CAT-5 and similar cables can be sensitive to bending and
kinking when they are used for computer networking. �Computer networking use
of this cable can involve frequencies in the 1,000 MHz range and above.
Next thing you know, the pothead will be raving about "skin effect".
Hmmm...pothead, eh?

Let's see...you called me Porky all those years, and then we found
that picture of you with your big pot belly rolling over your belt.
So I guess this means you must have a taste for the Devil's lettuce
yourself, right?

ROTFLMAO!

Boon
dizzy
2008-03-09 21:45:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by v***@aol.com
Post by dizzy
Next thing you know, the pothead will be raving about "skin effect".
Hmmm...pothead, eh?
Let's see...you called me Porky all those years,
Have you had one hit too many? I have never called you, or anyone
else, "Porky", in this or any other newsgroup, that I can recall.
Post by v***@aol.com
and then we found
that picture of you with your big pot belly rolling over your belt.
So I guess this means you must have a taste for the Devil's lettuce
yourself, right?
Umm... I've never had a "big pot belly". I'm a runner, and my BMI is
19.5.
Post by v***@aol.com
ROTFLMAO!
That's some good shit you're smoking, ain't it? Now it's the giggles,
later it will be the munchies, right? 8)
v***@aol.com
2008-03-09 22:29:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by v***@aol.com
Post by dizzy
Next thing you know, the pothead will be raving about "skin effect".
Hmmm...pothead, eh?
Let's see...you called me Porky all those years,
Have you had one hit too many? �I have never called you, or anyone
else, "Porky", in this or any other newsgroup, that I can recall.
Post by v***@aol.com
and then we found
that picture of you with your big pot belly rolling over your belt.
So I guess this means you must have a taste for the Devil's lettuce
yourself, right?
Umm... �I've never had a "big pot belly". �I'm a runner, and my BMI is
19.5.
Post by v***@aol.com
ROTFLMAO!
That's some good shit you're smoking, ain't it? �Now it's the giggles,
later it will be the munchies, right? � 8)
Okay...so you want to pretend to be someone else now. If I was
Malesweski, I'd probably feel the same way.

Boon
Arny Krueger
2008-03-07 12:46:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by w***@aol.com
I am reorganizing my stereo system in a different room on
a different floor , but if I want to avoid the speaker
cable crossing the floor over a high traffic and more
visible area, I will need to route it from the back of
the room. In that layout, the left and right speaker
lengths are going to be different where the left is less
than 5 ft and the right is about 20 ft, if not 25 ft. Is
that going to adversely effect the quality of the sound?
Not if the speaker cable is heavy enough gauge of wire. 12 or 14 gauge are
recommended for more home applications. 2 conductor stranded wire from a
hardware store or a home improvement store is entirely adequate for almost
all applications.
Bret Ludwig
2008-03-07 13:21:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arny Krueger
Post by w***@aol.com
I am reorganizing my stereo system in a different room on
a different floor , but if I want to avoid the speaker
cable crossing the floor over a high traffic and more
visible area, I will need to route it from the back of
the room. In that layout, the left and right speaker
lengths are going to be different where the left is less
than 5 ft and the right is about 20 ft, if not 25 ft. Is
that going to adversely effect the quality of the sound?
Not if the speaker cable is heavy enough gauge of wire. 12 or 14 gauge are
recommended for more home applications. 2 conductor stranded wire from a
hardware store or a home improvement store is entirely adequate for almost
all applications.
I'd use one gauge heavier if possible. Also, most common jacketed
wire products today are 3 conductor. I would call a restaurant supply
or GOOD appliance house and get two conductor heater cable, which is
used in commercial restaurant and other heating applications and
usually has attractive braiding patterns (similar to but usually more
subdued than bungee cord jackets) on its outer cloth surface. Old
clothes irons had this stuff.
Eeyore
2008-03-07 13:38:09 UTC
Permalink
Also, most common jacketed wire products today are 3 conductor.
Uh ?

Graham
Bret Ludwig
2008-03-07 13:41:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eeyore
Also, most common jacketed wire products today are 3 conductor.
Uh ?
Graham
Yes, if you go to the store, here in the US, the common jacketed
products are 3 conductor except for Romex which is four.
Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!
2008-03-07 21:22:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eeyore
Also, most common jacketed wire products today are 3 conductor.
Uh ?
Graham
 Yes, if you go to the store, here in the US, the common jacketed
products are 3 conductor except for Romex which is four.
Really. Hm. I wonder why the 12/2 Romex I recently bought only has two
conductors. I'd return it since it's obviously defective but the
electrical run I installed is already behind drywall.

Anyway, why would you want to use a stiff product like Romex is for
speaker cable? You might as well use BX. LOL!

You can learn about Romex here, dum-dum:

http://www.southwire.com/ProductCatalog/XTEInterfaceServlet?contentKey=prodcatsheet6

Your a idiot, Danny boy.
Arny Krueger
2008-03-07 15:43:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eeyore
Also, most common jacketed wire products today are 3
conductor.
Uh ?
Graham
Yeah, really. I wonder when the last time Bret visited a Home Depot or a
Lowes, or even an Aco hardware.
Arny Krueger
2008-03-07 15:43:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bret Ludwig
Post by Arny Krueger
Post by w***@aol.com
I am reorganizing my stereo system in a different room
on a different floor , but if I want to avoid the
speaker cable crossing the floor over a high traffic
and more visible area, I will need to route it from the
back of the room. In that layout, the left and right
speaker lengths are going to be different where the
left is less than 5 ft and the right is about 20 ft, if
not 25 ft. Is that going to adversely effect the
quality of the sound?
Not if the speaker cable is heavy enough gauge of wire.
12 or 14 gauge are recommended for more home
applications. 2 conductor stranded wire from a hardware
store or a home improvement store is entirely adequate
for almost all applications.
I'd use one gauge heavier if possible.
I don't know why.
Post by Bret Ludwig
Also, most common
jacketed wire products today are 3 conductor.
Who said anything about jacketed cable?

If by jacketed cable you mean that black rubber jacketed stuff used for
extension cable, just about every store around here stocks both the 2 and 3
conductor versions of it. I use the 2 conductor version for stage cables,
but for use in the listening room, it is vast overkill.
Post by Bret Ludwig
I would
call a restaurant supply or GOOD appliance house and get
two conductor heater cable, which is used in commercial
restaurant and other heating applications and usually has
attractive braiding patterns (similar to but usually more
subdued than bungee cord jackets) on its outer cloth
surface. Old clothes irons had this stuff.
I guess that cloth-braided cable appeals to the vacuum tube crowd, but for
those of us who are pursing the modern versions of audio, vinyl insulation
is just fine.
George M. Middius
2008-03-07 16:39:02 UTC
Permalink
The Krooborg asserts its Nazi kredentials.
Post by Arny Krueger
Post by Bret Ludwig
I'd use one gauge heavier if possible.
I don't know why.
Sorry, Bratzi, but in this area the Krooborg has substantial first-hand
knowledge. As you would know if you had read the "Big Book Of Audio
Sameness" (c. 1973, Borg-o-Rama Pubs., Goose Puke, MI), speaker wire has
only one ultimate purpose, and it has nothing to do with speakers. The
only meaningful test for any wire is whether you can choke a 'borg with
it. The Krooborg has prooved™ that 18ga wire is sufficient to choke any
'borg yet assimilated. Therefore, using your Audio 'Borg Cheapism Guide™,
you can easily deduce that spending the extra money for a heavier wire is
pointless and, even worse, heretical.
n***@comcast.net
2008-03-08 03:04:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by w***@aol.com
I am reorganizing my stereo system in a different room on a different
floor , but if I want to avoid the speaker cable crossing the floor
over a high traffic and more visible area, I will need to route it
from the back of the room. In that layout, the left and right speaker
lengths are going to be different where the left is less than 5 ft and
the right is about 20 ft, if not 25 ft. Is that going to adversely
effect the quality of the sound?
Thank you in advance ...
No.

You're welcome,

Norm Strong
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