Discussion:
Unbenchworthy
(too old to reply)
c***@hotmail.com
2005-01-11 04:36:23 UTC
Permalink
Just as Jack Mormons are untempleworthy and aircraft can be
unairworthy, a PC is unbenchworthy when used as a source or a
demodulator of audio for test and measurement purposes.

For one thing, the drives and power and reset buttons are on the front
whereas the sound card, usually the I/O in this application, is either
a PCI card in the back or on the motherboard.

The input and output are by a couple of sub-mini phono jacks.

This alone makes it unbenchworthy. But these problems can be addressed
by DIY measures. The fact is that others, however, cannot.

The PC has a low-priced, noisy switchmode supply and a usually total
lack of RF shielding internally. While not audible, the noise level can
and will be induced in cabling to the DUT, the DUT itself, and
everywhere else.

The PC soundcard is an entertainment grade, AC-coupled, single ended
affair. PCI cards with more sophisticated, instrument grade design do
exist-however they are often quite expensive. Serious cards designed
for legit T&M work, usually CompactPCI, PXI, or VME/VXI, are
astonishingly expensive. As are their host backplanes, enclosures, and
CPU cards (although old VMEbus stuff can usually be found and the
appropriate software compiled for the OS you wind up running.)

There are PC PCI oscilloscopes, spectrum analyzers, and arbs which
provide their own shielded and filtered micro-environment, but not only
they no cheaper than a standalone piece of test equipment, the host PC
still has all of the above disadvantages.

In short, PC-based test sucks for hobbyists, technicians, and
educators. It's probably OK for ATE installations, usually they go with
the aforementioned PXI or VXI for good measure and inflate the budget
anyway.
R
2005-01-11 06:23:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@hotmail.com
In short, PC-based test sucks for hobbyists, technicians, and
educators. It's probably OK for ATE installations, usually they go with
the aforementioned PXI or VXI for good measure and inflate the budget
anyway.
Please tell that to Sound Technology and Audio Precision.
www.soundtechnology.com
www.audioprecision.com

http://audioprecision.com/index.php?page=products&id=1000000123 shows a
picture of their PCI card which you so clearly disdain.

r
Arny Krueger
2005-01-11 11:23:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@hotmail.com
Just as Jack Mormons are untempleworthy and aircraft can be
unairworthy, a PC is unbenchworthy when used as a source or a
demodulator of audio for test and measurement purposes.
OK, that's your opinion, Cal. So far your RAO posts have been full of holes
like Swiss Cheese if not Muenster. Let's see if you have the facts to back
this one up.
Post by c***@hotmail.com
For one thing, the drives and power and reset buttons are on the front
whereas the sound card, usually the I/O in this application, is either
a PCI card in the back or on the motherboard.
Wrong. The audio interface can be wherever you want it to be, its just a
matter of picking the physical configuration you want. Obviously Cal doesn't
know about audio interfaces at all, even common ones like a Delta 1010 seem
to have eluded his fractional-second technical *study*.

Obviously Cal, you are not well-informed about audio interfaces or PCs.
Post by c***@hotmail.com
The input and output are by a couple of sub-mini phono jacks.
Wrong, Audio interfaces are available with a variety of common audio input
and output connections including XLR, TRS, and RCA.
Post by c***@hotmail.com
This alone makes it unbenchworthy. But these problems can be addressed
by DIY measures. The fact is that others, however, cannot.
The PC has a low-priced, noisy switchmode supply and a usually total
lack of RF shielding internally.
Wrong. In fact PC power supplies are as a rule built inside shielded steel
or aluminum boxes with some kind of RF bypassing on all of the inputs and
outputs.
Post by c***@hotmail.com
While not audible, the noise level
can and will be induced in cabling to the DUT, the DUT itself, and
everywhere else.
Wrong. In fact some of the quietest audio interfaces that exist have their
circuitry entirely inside the PC, on a PCI card.
Post by c***@hotmail.com
The PC soundcard is an entertainment grade, AC-coupled, single ended
affair.
Wrong, computer audio interfaces are widely used for audio production and
professional audio purposes. They are widely availble with true balanced
input and output connections. While audio interfaces are typically
AC-coupled, so is virtually every other piece of audio production equipment
on the market today.
Post by c***@hotmail.com
PCI cards with more sophisticated, instrument grade design do
exist-however they are often quite expensive.
You want quality audio? You pay for it. True for computer audio interfaces
as well.
Post by c***@hotmail.com
Serious cards designed for legit T&M work, usually CompactPCI, PXI, or
VME/VXI, are
astonishingly expensive.
You still want quality audio? You still pay for it. Still true for computer
audio interfaces as well.
Post by c***@hotmail.com
As are their host backplanes, enclosures, and
CPU cards (although old VMEbus stuff can usually be found and the
appropriate software compiled for the OS you wind up running.)
Actually, there's a wide variety of computer PCI cards on the market that
are used for test and measurement purposes.
Post by c***@hotmail.com
There are PC PCI oscilloscopes, spectrum analyzers, and arbs which
provide their own shielded and filtered micro-environment, but not
only they no cheaper than a standalone piece of test equipment, the
host PC still has all of the above disadvantages.
You forgot the part where these supposedly unsuitable products are widely
used and have excellent performance.
Post by c***@hotmail.com
In short, PC-based test sucks for hobbyists, technicians, and
educators.
Right now its a two-option feasibility study. You buy an Audio Precision
System Two for $10K (used) -$25K and up (new), or you pop a $850 LynxTWO
into a $500 PC and run Audition ($300) and Spectra Lab ($800) software on it
for a total of about $2500 brand new. BTW the prices I'm quoting are highly
approximate, YMMV.

Finally, there are some problems with PCs + sound cards as test equipment
that weren't covered in Cal's post, and as soon as Cal admits this post of
his is like totally wrong, I'll tell what they are.
Post by c***@hotmail.com
It's probably OK for ATE installations, usually they go
with the aforementioned PXI or VXI for good measure and inflate the
budget anyway.
BS.
Robert Morein
2005-01-11 14:03:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@hotmail.com
Just as Jack Mormons are untempleworthy and aircraft can be
unairworthy, a PC is unbenchworthy when used as a source or a
demodulator of audio for test and measurement purposes.
For one thing, the drives and power and reset buttons are on the front
whereas the sound card, usually the I/O in this application, is either
a PCI card in the back or on the motherboard.
The Midiman Delta 10-10 stands in contradiction to your claims.
For $600, you get EIGHT 24/96 inputs, eight 24/96 outputs, and SP/DIF I/O
Dynamic range 114 dB.

As much as I disagree with Arny Krueger on practically everything, his
measurement work on PC interfaces is respectable. It clearly shows that the
bests PC based solutions are within 4 dB of the finest, cost-no-object
standalone interfaces.
Provided the input levels are line or higher, the noise level in PCs is not
an obstacle.

The PC environment is electrically noisy, but onboard filtration and PC
board construction techniques successfully deal with it. Your post seems to
derive from consumer level solutions. Ordinary sound cards can be good,
mediocre, or awful, but never satisfactory for metrology.

IME, mic preamps should never be PC based, nor derive their power from
switching supplies. This is the only exception I am aware of.
Arny Krueger
2005-01-11 14:48:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Morein
IME, mic preamps should never be PC based,
Agreed.
Post by Robert Morein
nor derive their power from switching supplies.
Ironically, just about every modern mic preamp derives its ca. 48 volt
phantom power from an onboard switchmode voltage multiplier power supply.
Robert Morein
2005-01-13 03:42:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arny Krueger
Post by Robert Morein
IME, mic preamps should never be PC based,
Agreed.
Post by Robert Morein
nor derive their power from switching supplies.
Ironically, just about every modern mic preamp derives its ca. 48 volt
phantom power from an onboard switchmode voltage multiplier power supply.
It is commonly seen.
However, I found when using microphones that have abnormally low output,
such as Sony small diaphram electrets, switching grunge is clearly audible.
When higher output microphones were substituted, it ceased to be a problem.

Digital supplies rely internally on stepped waveforms, creating an enormous
level of noise. This challenges filtration.

Analog supplies are quieter.
Powell
2005-01-11 19:35:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Morein
Dynamic range 114 dB.
As if that's the standard for determining fidelity. M-Audio
Audiophile 192, dynamic range: 113 dB @ 48kHz (a-weighted),
THD + N: 0.0006%, less than $200.
http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/Audiophile192-focus.html
Post by Robert Morein
The PC environment is electrically noisy, but onboard filtration
and PC board construction techniques successfully deal with it.
Not so. I can drop the noise floor 4-7 dB on a PCI
sound card by using a power conditioner. In addition
there has never been a survey of EMF/RF distortion
levels happening inside a PC and what, if any, undesirable
effect this has on overall fidelityof the sound card interface.

Power supplies are common weak points in PCs,
consumer and pro products. Recently purchased a ATI
video card which required its own power supply. Point
being, power supplies in many PCs are running near
their normal maximum limits. This is not the ideal
condition.

OTOH, with 64-bit audio drivers and PCI Express becoming
available it will be the DAW manufactures taking
the serious recording hobbyist/professional to the next
level.
Post by Robert Morein
IME, mic preamps should never be PC based, nor derive their
power from switching supplies. This is the only exception I am
aware of.
"I am aware of"... as apposed to what? Thanks for the
warning, Robert :).
c***@hotmail.com
2005-01-12 01:32:47 UTC
Permalink
Yes there are excellent PCI cards but as I said their pricing raises
them outside the level of "commodity PC". And with PCI-as opposed to
VXI or PXI-you have the form factor issue as well.

Audio Precision is very good stuff but their systems generally are
standalone (Portable One or ATS-1) or have a separate chassis which is
run from a PC but is not a PC. It's interesting to note that Potomac is
still selling AG-51/AA-51 pairs-essentially a HP 339 split in two
chassis-at a reasonable rate.

I stand by my conclusions-PC-based test is more suited to ATE or
repetitive suite testing and a pain in the ass for servicing. A box
like a System Two is _not_ remotely the same as a card inside a PC. A
Potable One, ATS-1, or a HP 8903 or 339 is going to be a lot more of
a bench solution for R&D, service, or hobby purposes.

Many standalone test boxes, such as the Agilent Infiniium
oscilloscopes, have gone the other way-they are a standalone box with
a PC inside them. This beats the hell out of a PC per se but is still
a pain in the ass in some respects. For audio and general purpose work
a real oscilloscope with an electrostatically deflected CRT is
superior. Tek has declared otherwise, but they are wrong. I have used
the Infiniium and I think it's awkward. I've also used both PC based RF
spectrum analyzers and 'classics' like the HP 8591E and IFR 8000-much
easier to use.

Finally, 48V phantom power is a mid-fi/sound reinforcement grade
solution. Most really good mics like the Telefunken/Neumanns have a
separate dedicated power supply. Phantom powered mics may be used in
various applications in serious recording, but usually vocals tend to
be recorded on the condenser mics with outboard supply, or on ribbon
mics-although the humble Shure SM57 was used for vocals on at least a
few huge records.
Arny Krueger
2005-01-12 02:46:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@hotmail.com
Yes there are excellent PCI cards
Major change of story, noted.
Post by c***@hotmail.com
but as I said their pricing raises
them outside the level of "commodity PC".
Addition of new qualification, noted.
Post by c***@hotmail.com
And with PCI-as opposed to
VXI or PXI-you have the form factor issue as well.
Cal tries to make PCI slot compatibility into some kind of a problem.
Post by c***@hotmail.com
I stand by my conclusions-PC-based test is more suited to ATE or
repetitive suite testing and a pain in the ass for servicing.
Any relationship between this new conclusion and the the title of the thread
or the false facts that Cal presented in his OP is less than coincidental.
Post by c***@hotmail.com
A box like a System Two is _not_ remotely the same as a card inside a PC.
And the facts to support this conclusion are exactly where?
Post by c***@hotmail.com
A Potable One, ATS-1, or a HP 8903 or 339 is going to be a lot more of
a bench solution for R&D, service, or hobby purposes.
If you think that the HP boxes are in the same league as a System 2 or a
LynxTWO, well then you must be the guy who made the OP and got just about
everything wrong.
Post by c***@hotmail.com
Many standalone test boxes, such as the Agilent Infiniium
oscilloscopes, have gone the other way-they are a standalone box with
a PC inside them. This beats the hell out of a PC per se but is still
a pain in the ass in some respects.
And the facts to support this conclusion are exactly where?
Post by c***@hotmail.com
For audio and general purpose work
a real oscilloscope with an electrostatically deflected CRT is
superior.
Kinda hard to find a 'scope that can measure frequency response or
distortion to standards consistent with modern hifi.
Post by c***@hotmail.com
Finally, 48V phantom power is a mid-fi/sound reinforcement grade
solution.
That's why it is virtually the universal standard, used in virtually every
recording studio in the world.
Post by c***@hotmail.com
Most really good mics like the Telefunken/Neumanns have a
separate dedicated power supply.
http://www.neumann.com/welcome04_4.php Lists over 32 microphones. I looked
at about half of the spec sheets randomly chosen and couldn't find even one
that didn't run off a standard 48 volt nominal standard phantom power
supply.
Post by c***@hotmail.com
Phantom powered mics may be used in
various applications in serious recording, but usually vocals tend to
be recorded on the condenser mics with outboard supply
Not most of the Neuman's you cited, Cal. Pehaps not any. Only mics I know
of that use an dedicated outboard supply are DPA measurement mics (probably
known to you as B&K).
Post by c***@hotmail.com
or on ribbon mics
Not any of the Neuman's you cited, Cal.
Post by c***@hotmail.com
although the humble Shure SM57 was used for vocals on at least a few huge
records.
Agreed.
c***@hotmail.com
2005-01-12 03:32:42 UTC
Permalink
http://www.neumann.com/infopool/mics/produkte.php?ProdID=m147

" The M 147 Tube is a vacuum tube condenser microphone with cardioid
characteristic. At the heart of this microphone is the K 47 dual
diaphragm capsule, inherited from this model's now legendary
predecessors, the U 47 and the M 49.

Following the capsule is a tube that functions as an impedance
converter. The next stage is an efficient, transformerless output
circuit, that guarantees an extremely low self-noise level. Note: This
innovative combination of current tube technology with the most
advanced solid-state circuitry was decisive in awarding the 1997 TEC
Award to the related M 149 Tube mic.

The M 147 Tube can feed extremely long microphone cables without
affecting the quality of the audio signal. Like all Neumann tube
microphones, the M 147 Tube comes with an elegant satin nickel finish.

The microphone is delivered as a complete set in a high-quality
aluminum case. Included with the microphone are a microphone cable, a
metal swivel mount for a mic stand, and a compact universal power
supply for standard mains sockets. Our modern manufacturing methods
makes it possible to offer this complete set at a very attractive
price. ""

Your random search wasn't so random was it Mr Arny???? Anyone who can
even spell Neumann knows the U47 is the Neumann mic. Apparently the U47
is no longer: I just guessed at "147" as an approximate match.
c***@hotmail.com
2005-01-12 04:00:40 UTC
Permalink
Manley Gold Reference Multi Pattern Microphone

Features And Specifications | Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price

Get the owner's manual PDF | User raves | See a bigger picture!





The MANLEY GOLD REFERENCE MULTI-PATTERN MICROPHONES are a statement,
quite simply, of the finest microphones that money can buy in the
pursuit of truly accurate musical recordings. The Gold Reference Series
employ our own design of large capsules (1.25 inch overall, 1 inch
diaphragm diameter) which are executed to precise tolerances made
possible by modern micro-milling machinery available today in
California. The capsule rings and back-plates are milled from solid
brass. The gold diaphragm film comes from Germany and is tensioned
using proprietary techniques by David Josephson ensuring
capsule-to-capsule constancy, combined with the speed, "air", and
superb ultra-high frequency response you have only dreamt about.

The all-tube electronics in the MANLEY REFERENCE SERIES MICROPHONES are
built around two triodes in cascade forming an entire gain-block. We
have recently switched to a dual-triode 12AX7WA, easily obtainable and
replaceable, mounted in a ceramic socket. (We used to use 6072A until
it became impossible to find quiet ones out of the NOS dreck left on
the market.) The output is coupled through a MANLEY output transformer
of unparalleled quality and substantial physical size employing nickel
laminations with "hum bucking" bi-filar windings, encased in mu-metal.
The polar pattern control is continuously variable between the OMNI,
CARDIOID, and FIGURE 8 positions vastly increasing this mic's
versatility. The Gold Mics make it possible to exactly tailor the
proximity effect to achieve the desired character.

We have chosen a very open weave stainless-steel grille for the capsule
window which allows all the highs to reach the capsule unimpaired
letting the engineer choose if, when, and how much pop screen is
appropriate. As a result, the Reference Gold reaches to the furthest
extremes of highs and lows with gorgeous natural acoustic smoothness.
Some engineers tell us it sometimes "hears" more than they do! The base
of the microphone holds a locking 3 pin gold XLR connector for the
audio signal output to allow you to use whatever audio cable you
prefer- as exotic as you wish. A detachable threaded 4-pin connector
for the 30 foot power supply cable carries the stringently filtered B+
and regulated heater voltages from the separate dedicated power supply.
The microphone body is machined from brass providing excellent
shielding properties, polished to a high lustre, then plated with 24
karat gold for an impressive finish, inspiring confidence in artists
and producers.

Our precision suspension system is provided with each REFERENCE
MICROPHONE (the capsule itself is mounted onto a neoprene-rubber
shock-mount.) Because the entire working "guts" of the microphone may
be removed for service in one piece from the housing, it is envisioned
that the microphone need not be removed

from the suspension. We also provide a very useful swivel of our own
design with every REFERENCE MICROPHONE; its T-bar handle and locking
clutch action require no tools to adjust. And no MANLEY microphone
would be complete without a genuine leather capsule protector with soft
velour lining which slips (and ties) onto the end of the microphone to
protect the capsule when not in use.

Each REFERENCE MICROPHONE is packaged complete in a strong locking
carrying-case.
c***@hotmail.com
2005-01-12 04:12:01 UTC
Permalink
Langevin CR3A Microphone Review from Recording Magazine 2/98

Features And Specifications | Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price
Langevin CR3A Owner's manual PDF

The successor to the CR-3A produced from 1990 to 2001, the LANGEVIN
CR-2001 is our entry model cardioid capacitor microphone, very handy
for recording just about anything. The capsule is the same as his
bigger brother, the Manley Reference Cardioid, but the CR-2001 runs off
standard 48 volt phantom power having an all-discrete amplifier circuit
employing very low noise transistors and selected FET's instead of
tubes. (Well, this is a less expensive mic!) In that spirit, the metal
parts are sourced overseas to keep the cost down for ya'll but all
assembly, detailed soldering, and most importantly, attentive quality
control processes are performed at our USA factory right alongside the
Manley mics. As you have come to expect from Manley, the Langevin
CR2001 carries a FIVE year warranty like all our gear.

Two switches provide for -10dB pad attenuation and bass roll-off (high
pass filter). The CR-2001 comes complete and ready to record with its
sturdy shock mount and custom carrying case.

(See what I mean, This unit uses phantom power, but it's the economy
model. It's a fine mic for Hilary Duff and other Stern Show Queef
Contest entries, the Tube mic is better though.)
Arny Krueger
2005-01-12 10:18:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@hotmail.com
http://www.neumann.com/infopool/mics/produkte.php?ProdID=m147
The (M147) microphone is delivered as a complete set in a high-quality
aluminum case. Included with the microphone are a microphone cable, a
metal swivel mount for a mic stand, and a compact universal power
supply for standard mains sockets. Our modern manufacturing methods
makes it possible to offer this complete set at a very attractive
price. ""
Your random search wasn't so random was it Mr Arny????
You obviously don't get how random searching works. If something is rare, it
might not find it. So, there's one mic (maybe one or two more) that are
legacy designs and come with their own power supply.

OK Cal, so among the over 32 microphones listed at http://www.neumann.com ,
your found that one of them uses an external power supply. What about almost
all of the rest of them that do use standard phantom power?

This one mic you listed hardly justifies your claim that:

"Finally, 48V phantom power is a mid-fi/sound reinforcement grade
solution. Most really good mics like the Telefunken/Neumanns have a
separate dedicated power supply."

Or, Cal are you saying that every current Neumann microphone other than the
M147 "... is a mid-fi/sound reinforcement grade
solution."?

LOL!

No Cal, while Neumann makes mikes that are intended and used for sound
reinforcement, *all* of their mics are very high quality, even the ones that
use 48 volt phantom power. None of them are "mid fi" yet most of them
(almost all of them) use phantom power.

The history of dedicated power supplies is that there are at least two good
reasons they are used - one is that in the old days before condenser mics
became popular, phantom power was rare and selling a power supply with a
condenser mic made sense. That was then, and this is now.

The second reason dedicated power supplies are used is that a tiny minority
of mics have power needs that are not met by standard 48 volt phantom power.
Post by c***@hotmail.com
Anyone who can even spell Neumann knows the U47 is the Neumann mic.
No Cal the U47 *was* the Neumann mic. I guess I need to remind you again
that this is the year 2005.

It's probable that the U147 uses an external power supply because the U47
did, and the U47 was designed in the days when phantom power was not nearly
as pervasive as it is today.
Post by c***@hotmail.com
Apparently the U47 is no longer: I just guessed at "147" as an
approximate match.
The U47 is obsolete, the U147 is its sequel. Like most of the rest of the BS
you post here Cal, your technology is out of date.
Powell
2005-01-12 16:39:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arny Krueger
The U47 is obsolete, the U147 is its sequel. Like most
of the rest of the BS you post here Cal, your technology
is out of date.
Here's the future in microphone recording technology.
Neumann digital microphone ($10 K.) The signal is
converted directly into 28-bit digital form at the capsule.

Product:
http://www.neumann.com/infopool/mics/produkte_sol_d.php?ProdID=solution-d&Language=Engl

Review:
http://www.audiomedia.com/archive/reviews/us-0902/us-0902-neumann/us-0902-neumann.htm
John Atkinson
2005-01-12 20:35:35 UTC
Permalink
It's probable that the [M147] uses an external power supply because
the U47 did, and the U47 was designed in the days when phantom power
was not nearly as pervasive as it is today.
Phantom power is not the issue with these mikes. Like the U47, the
M147 uses tubes, which need external power. I own a pair of these
1" cardioid mikes, and, when used appropriately, they can give
fine results. I used them for the main pickup on my "Mosaic" CD
(http://www.stereophile.com/features/575) and my "Let Your Voice
be Heard" CD (http://www.stereophile.com/features/465). Even though
the '147 uses tubes, its self-noise is sufficiently low to be
used for distant miking, as in these recordings.

The TLM103 is a half-price, solid-state Neumann mike that uses a
somewhat similar cardioid capsule. I used a pair of these for the
close-miked piano pickup on the Debussy track on "Editor's Choice"
(http://www.stereophile.com/features/853/index9.html -- you can
also purchase an MP3 of this track for 99 cents from Cantus, at
http://www.cantusonline.org/Store/cantusstore.htm) and I have
also used them with success on electric guitar amps.
John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
Arny Krueger
2005-01-12 21:25:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Atkinson
It's probable that the [M147] uses an external power supply because
the U47 did, and the U47 was designed in the days when phantom power
was not nearly as pervasive as it is today.
Phantom power is not the issue with these mikes. Like the U47, the
M147 uses tubes, which need external power.
What about the tubed mics that run off of standard phantom power?

http://www.mojopie.com/at3060.html

"The AT3060 is a cardioid-pattern side-address large diaphragm condenser
mic. It requires 48v of phantom power to spark up its Raytheon 6418 tube.
You use standard issue XLR microphone cable with the AT3060."

http://www.gefell-mics.com/grp_1_prod_1.htm

"The Tec Award nominated Gefell UM900 'Phantom' is a low-noise large
diaphragm vacuum tube microphone with 5 selectable polar patterns that only
requires 48V phantom for its operation."
John Atkinson
2005-01-12 22:41:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arny Krueger
Post by John Atkinson
It's probable that the [M147] uses an external power supply
because the U47 did, and the U47 was designed in the days when
phantom power was not nearly as pervasive as it is today.
Phantom power is not the issue with these mikes. Like the U47,
the M147 uses tubes, which need external power.
What about the tubed mics that run off of standard phantom power?
Yes, these exist, of course. I was not saying that _all_ tube mikes
use external power supplies, just pointing out that the two Neumann
mikes you mentioned do so.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
Powell
2005-01-12 15:48:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@hotmail.com
Yes there are excellent PCI cards but as I said their
pricing raises them outside the level of "commodity PC".
Please define "commodity PC."
Post by c***@hotmail.com
Finally, 48V phantom power is a mid-fi/sound reinforcement
grade solution.
Why do you say that?
Post by c***@hotmail.com
Most really good mics like the Telefunken/Neumanns
have a separate dedicated power supply.
Quack, quack, quack...
Post by c***@hotmail.com
Shure SM57 was used for vocals on at least a few
huge records.
"SM57"... big yawn.
Arny Krueger
2005-01-12 15:51:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Powell
Post by c***@hotmail.com
Finally, 48V phantom power is a mid-fi/sound reinforcement
grade solution.
Why do you say that?
To quote you Powell, and this time your usual canned response really fits:

quack, quack, quack.

;-)
c***@hotmail.com
2005-01-12 22:07:58 UTC
Permalink
Ok, we're both a little wrong.

Many phantom powered products are first rate, they are not necessarily
lesser products. Although as Manley points out in his VTL Book, having
power and signal on separate conductors is a great potential
advantage-no pun intended!

But the U47 is still very much in use every day all over the world,
even though it is not a current production item.

Many companies make tube condenser mics including BLUE, Manley,
probably a dozen more. They are still extremely popular in all aspects
of recording where the cost and bother are acceptable.


I have heard Atkinson's recordings and they are better than pretty
good; although I am not knowledgeable enough about classical music,
much of which frankly bores me, to offer a really respectable opinion.

Arny's recordings to my knowledge have not been distributed even as
extensively as Atkinson's. However, it's clear he does not have a
substantial portfolio.
Arny Krueger
2005-01-12 23:59:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@hotmail.com
Ok, we're both a little wrong.
In addition Cal, you have been grossly wrong, and not just about this narrow
issue.
Post by c***@hotmail.com
Many phantom powered products are first rate, they are not necessarily
lesser products. Although as Manley points out in his VTL Book, having
power and signal on separate conductors is a great potential
advantage-no pun intended!
I don't think that many of Manley's claims are universally accepted.
Post by c***@hotmail.com
But the U47 is still very much in use every day all over the world,
even though it is not a current production item.
So what? I never said otherwise. It's simply a legacy mic that has been
dropped from production and supplanted by a number of newer models.
Post by c***@hotmail.com
Many companies make tube condenser mics including BLUE, Manley,
probably a dozen more. They are still extremely popular in all aspects
of recording where the cost and bother are acceptable.
The with this claim is that the cost and bother are not accepable in all
aspects of recording. Therefore, your statement is false.
Post by c***@hotmail.com
I have heard Atkinson's recordings and they are better than pretty
good; although I am not knowledgeable enough about classical music,
much of which frankly bores me, to offer a really respectable opinion.
I'm not going to haggle about the exact meaning of "pretty good". Frankly,
I'm a strong believer in musical content. While I prefer and appreciate
quality reproduction, the aspect of music that appeals to me the most is the
musical text and the performance. For example, my portable digital player
has the entire Toscanini Beethoven cycle loaded on it.
Post by c***@hotmail.com
Arny's recordings to my knowledge have not been distributed even as
extensively as Atkinson's.
My recordings are not in competition with anybody. I provide them only
rarely and for specific technical reasons.
Post by c***@hotmail.com
However, it's clear he does not have a substantial portfolio.
Also, I haven't been recording frequently for very long. I also haven't had
much really good music to record.
c***@hotmail.com
2005-01-13 00:29:25 UTC
Permalink
Arny Krueger wrote:
<snip>
Post by Arny Krueger
Post by c***@hotmail.com
Many phantom powered products are first rate, they are not
necessarily
Post by Arny Krueger
Post by c***@hotmail.com
lesser products. Although as Manley points out in his VTL Book, having
power and signal on separate conductors is a great potential
advantage-no pun intended!
I don't think that many of Manley's claims are universally accepted.
Manley Labs is one of the premier companies out there. Their stuff is
very popular and very respected. David Manley inadvertently helped
light off the DIY tube renaissance with his VTL Book which was intended
to sell VTL equipment. No one said he was a great original designer,
but he had the sense to copy people worth copying. And the VTL stuff
_sounds good_. I know you don't like that basic concept, but that's the
way it is.
Post by Arny Krueger
Post by c***@hotmail.com
But the U47 is still very much in use every day all over the world,
even though it is not a current production item.
So what? I never said otherwise. It's simply a legacy mic that has been
dropped from production and supplanted by a number of newer models.
Post by c***@hotmail.com
Many companies make tube condenser mics including BLUE, Manley,
probably a dozen more. They are still extremely popular in all aspects
of recording where the cost and bother are acceptable.
The with this claim is that the cost and bother are not accepable in all
aspects of recording. Therefore, your statement is false.
???

My statement was that it's common to use tube mics, conditionally. You
say that's false because those conditions aren't universal. One of us
misunderstands the English language, and badly.
Post by Arny Krueger
Post by c***@hotmail.com
I have heard Atkinson's recordings and they are better than pretty
good; although I am not knowledgeable enough about classical music,
much of which frankly bores me, to offer a really respectable opinion.
I'm not going to haggle about the exact meaning of "pretty good". Frankly,
I'm a strong believer in musical content. While I prefer and
appreciate
Post by Arny Krueger
quality reproduction, the aspect of music that appeals to me the most is the
musical text and the performance. For example, my portable digital player
has the entire Toscanini Beethoven cycle loaded on it.
Post by c***@hotmail.com
Arny's recordings to my knowledge have not been distributed even as
extensively as Atkinson's.
My recordings are not in competition with anybody. I provide them only
rarely and for specific technical reasons.
Post by c***@hotmail.com
However, it's clear he does not have a substantial portfolio.
Also, I haven't been recording frequently for very long. I also haven't had
much really good music to record.
I don't like Burt and Dick Rutan's airplanes or their way of doing
business necessarily, but they are flying and I'm not, so no one much
cares what I think on the topic. Atkinson records a lot more than you
do, therefore his opinions on recording are going to be weighted higher
than yours by most people, including myself.

The world of excellent recording engineers has spoken, and clearly,
that equipment built to standards not congruent to the current state of
consumer electronics practice-including the use of unnecessarily
expensive passive components and in some cases the vacuum tube-is best.
Given the choice of Alesis and Mackie everything or equipment from
specialist suppliers like Manley, the successful people go with the
Manleys-and seemingly don't care that Arny doesn't approve.
Arny Krueger
2005-01-13 00:47:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@hotmail.com
Post by Arny Krueger
Post by c***@hotmail.com
Many phantom powered products are first rate, they are not
necessarily lesser products. Although as Manley points out in his
VTL Book, having power and signal on separate conductors is a great
potential advantage-no pun intended!
I don't think that many of Manley's claims are universally accepted.
Manley Labs is one of the premier companies out there. Their stuff is
very popular and very respected. David Manley inadvertently helped
light off the DIY tube renaissance with his VTL Book which was
intended to sell VTL equipment.
Sorry to rock your boat Cal, but David Manley presently has nothing to do
with Manley labs, and hasn't been involved with it for years. Most of their
current product in terms of sales was designed by someone else.

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue5/manley.htm (in 2003)

"ll, time goes on, and things change. Nowadays, David Manley is no longer
associated with Manley Laboratories; instead, it is now run by EveAnna."

The transition seems to have happened in or about the year 2000, about 5
years ago.
Post by c***@hotmail.com
My statement was that it's common to use tube mics, conditionally. You
say that's false because those conditions aren't universal. One of us
misunderstands the English language, and badly.
Yeah Cal, your paraphrase of what I said is from outer space. I'm not going
to try to straighten you out.
Post by c***@hotmail.com
Post by Arny Krueger
Post by c***@hotmail.com
I have heard Atkinson's recordings and they are better than pretty
good; although I am not knowledgeable enough about classical music,
much of which frankly bores me, to offer a really respectable opinion.
I'm not going to haggle about the exact meaning of "pretty good".
Frankly, I'm a strong believer in musical content. While I prefer
and appreciate quality reproduction, the aspect of music that
appeals to me the most is the musical text and the performance. For
example, my portable digital player has the entire Toscanini
Beethoven cycle loaded on it.
Atkinson records a lot more than you
do, therefore his opinions on recording are going to be weighted
higher than yours by most people, including myself.
I seriously doubt that. I might have done more hours of recording in the
past 2 years than he did in the previous decade or more. I just release a
whole lot less of what I record. This business of comparing my recordings
to Atkinson's is nuts. We have vastly different interests in recording, not
to disparage his work in any way. Cal, it's obvious that you're pursuing a
tangent, in an obvious desperate atttempt to distract attentiion from your
poor command of relevant facts related to audio in 2005.
Post by c***@hotmail.com
The world of excellent recording engineers has spoken, and clearly,
that equipment built to standards not congruent to the current state
of consumer electronics practice-including the use of unnecessarily
expensive passive components and in some cases the vacuum tube-is best.
In terms of sales volume, most tubed audio production equipment is
essentially a kind of EFX box.
Post by c***@hotmail.com
Given the choice of Alesis and Mackie everything or equipment
from specialist suppliers like Manley, the successful people go with
the Manleys-and seemingly don't care that Arny doesn't approve.
I'd bet money that among high end mic preamps, SS product vastly outsells
the tubed stuff. Tubes are boutique items, not mainstream audio.
c***@hotmail.com
2005-01-13 00:54:26 UTC
Permalink
Among high end mic preamps-my guess is it's 50-50 at best, and the
solid state ones are no less expensive. They certainly aren't cleaner
or more transparent necessarily, and they aren't necessarily lower
maintenance (excluding changing tubes every few years).

Vacuum tubes are still a competitive technology in high end audio--a
flat, unequivocal, and correct statement.
Arny Krueger
2005-01-13 00:55:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@hotmail.com
Among high end mic preamps-my guess is it's 50-50 at best, and the
solid state ones are no less expensive. They certainly aren't cleaner
or more transparent necessarily, and they aren't necessarily lower
maintenance (excluding changing tubes every few years).
Vacuum tubes are still a competitive technology in high end audio--a
flat, unequivocal, and correct statement.
Not at all. Tubed equipment is a small segment of the total high end audio
market.
c***@hotmail.com
2005-01-13 01:36:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arny Krueger
Post by c***@hotmail.com
Among high end mic preamps-my guess is it's 50-50 at best, and the
solid state ones are no less expensive. They certainly aren't cleaner
or more transparent necessarily, and they aren't necessarily lower
maintenance (excluding changing tubes every few years).
Vacuum tubes are still a competitive technology in high end
audio--a
Post by Arny Krueger
Post by c***@hotmail.com
flat, unequivocal, and correct statement.
Not at all. Tubed equipment is a small segment of the total high end audio
market.
Depending on which manufacturers you include as high end, it's between
fifteen and fifty percent of the High End home audio electronics (i.e.
not speakers, cables, stands, et al) market. Very few High End
stores-those carrying the really expensive lines, not 'high-midfi'
speciallist stores that do mostly home theater and appliances-don't
have a tube line like ARC, VTL, c-j, et al along with Linn,
Krell,Rowland, etc.

Many companies have both solid state and tube equipment, of course.
McIntosh, to the grin of thermiophobes everywhere, sells several tube
boxes.

Accurate statistics are tough in this business, but flipping through
TAS, Absolute Sound, et al. makes it difficult to deny there is a lot
of tube gear out there.

None the less, Kroo will....
Arny Krueger
2005-01-13 02:35:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@hotmail.com
Post by Arny Krueger
Post by c***@hotmail.com
Among high end mic preamps-my guess is it's 50-50 at best, and the
solid state ones are no less expensive. They certainly aren't
cleaner or more transparent necessarily, and they aren't
necessarily lower maintenance (excluding changing tubes every few
years).
Vacuum tubes are still a competitive technology in high end
audio--a
Post by Arny Krueger
Post by c***@hotmail.com
flat, unequivocal, and correct statement.
Not at all. Tubed equipment is a small segment of the total high end
audio market.
Depending on which manufacturers you include as high end, it's between
fifteen and fifty percent of the High End home audio electronics (i.e.
not speakers, cables, stands, et al) market.
IOW Cal, even by your optimistic accountin tubed are probably only a tiny
fraction of the market.
c***@hotmail.com
2005-01-13 02:45:16 UTC
Permalink
Worst case scenario of 15% is not "tiny". One or two percent would be
tiny. Fifteen is noticeable.
Arny Krueger
2005-01-13 02:50:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@hotmail.com
Worst case scenario of 15% is not "tiny". One or two percent would be
tiny. Fifteen is noticeable.
15% is almost certainly a dream, not reality.
Sander deWaal
2005-01-13 19:02:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@hotmail.com
Among high end mic preamps-my guess is it's 50-50 at best, and the
solid state ones are no less expensive. They certainly aren't cleaner
or more transparent necessarily, and they aren't necessarily lower
maintenance (excluding changing tubes every few years).
Umm....changing tubes *is* maintenance, Cal, and it can be *very*
expensive in the case of EF/UF/VF14 Telefunkens.... :-)
Besides, there's the problem that different (brands of) tubes give
different results, especially in low signal-high gain appliances like
mic- and phono preamps.

That said, I know of many recording engineers who indeed still prefer
tubed mics in certain situations, but also not in all cases.
Post by c***@hotmail.com
Vacuum tubes are still a competitive technology in high end audio--a
flat, unequivocal, and correct statement.
Competitive would take it a bit far, but let's say they do still play
a role.
--
Sander de Waal
" SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. "
Arny Krueger
2005-01-13 19:09:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sander deWaal
Post by c***@hotmail.com
Among high end mic preamps-my guess is it's 50-50 at best, and the
solid state ones are no less expensive. They certainly aren't cleaner
or more transparent necessarily, and they aren't necessarily lower
maintenance (excluding changing tubes every few years).
Umm....changing tubes *is* maintenance, Cal, and it can be *very*
expensive in the case of EF/UF/VF14 Telefunkens.... :-)
Besides, there's the problem that different (brands of) tubes give
different results, especially in low signal-high gain appliances like
mic- and phono preamps.
That said, I know of many recording engineers who indeed still prefer
tubed mics in certain situations, but also not in all cases.
Post by c***@hotmail.com
Vacuum tubes are still a competitive technology in high end audio--a
flat, unequivocal, and correct statement.
Competitive would take it a bit far, but let's say they do still play
a role.
Wow Sander, you decided to starrt making sense?
Sander deWaal
2005-01-13 20:02:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arny Krueger
Post by Sander deWaal
Post by c***@hotmail.com
Among high end mic preamps-my guess is it's 50-50 at best, and the
solid state ones are no less expensive. They certainly aren't cleaner
or more transparent necessarily, and they aren't necessarily lower
maintenance (excluding changing tubes every few years).
Umm....changing tubes *is* maintenance, Cal, and it can be *very*
expensive in the case of EF/UF/VF14 Telefunkens.... :-)
Besides, there's the problem that different (brands of) tubes give
different results, especially in low signal-high gain appliances like
mic- and phono preamps.
That said, I know of many recording engineers who indeed still prefer
tubed mics in certain situations, but also not in all cases.
Post by c***@hotmail.com
Vacuum tubes are still a competitive technology in high end audio--a
flat, unequivocal, and correct statement.
Competitive would take it a bit far, but let's say they do still play
a role.
Wow Sander, you decided to starrt making sense?
I'm not aware that I changed my POV regarding audio, Arnold.

You got new glasses? ;-)
--
Sander de Waal
" SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. "
c***@hotmail.com
2005-01-13 20:45:44 UTC
Permalink
I have in my hand the 1/2005 issue of Stereophile.

Without doing a thorough statistical analysis, about a fourth of the
electronics units ads are for tube units.

Of five items formally reviewed, two are loudspeakers. The other three
are solid state electronic boxes, therefore in this issue the
percentage is zero.

However, the number three is statistically insignificant. Perhaps Mr.
Atkinson could give us some data averaged throughout the year as to
what percentage of electronic equipment he reviews uses tubes wholly or
partially.

I restate that without conclusive proof otherwise, I believe the
dollar volume percentage of wholly or partially tubed electronics is
somewhere between 15 and 50 percent of the total dollar volume spent on
High End home audio electronics.
Arny Krueger
2005-01-13 21:05:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@hotmail.com
I have in my hand the 1/2005 issue of Stereophile.
Without doing a thorough statistical analysis, about a fourth of the
electronics units ads are for tube units.
Showing that the products have larger advertising budgets, nothing more.

Also, a lot of magazines are not as suitable for tube product advertising,
because they do not carry much if any editorial content related to tubes.
Post by c***@hotmail.com
Of five items formally reviewed, two are loudspeakers. The other three
are solid state electronic boxes, therefore in this issue the
percentage is zero.
Note use of tiny sample in vain attempt to support weird hypothesis.
c***@hotmail.com
2005-01-13 21:18:40 UTC
Permalink
The tiny sample opposes my own hypothesis, not supports it. However
rather than handwave I stated it anyway.

Stereophile and TAS are for all intents and purposes ARE high end
audio journalism. $ensible Sound and AudioXPress are "the alternatives"
one catering to nontechnical budget hobbyists and the other to DIYers
(although alter-alter-alternate media like VTV have backcut them pretty
badly.) .
Arny Krueger
2005-01-13 22:07:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@hotmail.com
The tiny sample opposes my own hypothesis, not supports it. However
rather than handwave I stated it anyway.
Stereophile and TAS are for all intents and purposes ARE high end
audio journalism. $ensible Sound and AudioXPress are "the
alternatives" one catering to nontechnical budget hobbyists and the
other to DIYers (although alter-alter-alternate media like VTV have
backcut them pretty badly.) .
Advertising says little or nothing about market share. It says something
about how badly someone wants more sales.

Clyde Slick
2005-01-13 03:28:19 UTC
Permalink
"Arny Krueger" <***@hotpop.com> wrote in message news:OpadnSDONYt_JHjcRVn-***@comcast.com...


I also haven't had
Post by Arny Krueger
much really good music to record.
Agreed.
Robert Morein
2005-01-13 03:33:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Powell
Post by Robert Morein
Dynamic range 114 dB.
As if that's the standard for determining fidelity. M-Audio
THD + N: 0.0006%, less than $200.
http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/Audiophile192-focus.html
Post by Robert Morein
The PC environment is electrically noisy, but onboard filtration
and PC board construction techniques successfully deal with it.
Not so. I can drop the noise floor 4-7 dB on a PCI
sound card by using a power conditioner.
I don't believe this.
Try taking your hands off the meter needle, and avoid pushing the "tilt"
switch.
Arny Krueger
2005-01-13 10:40:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Morein
Post by Powell
Post by Robert Morein
Dynamic range 114 dB.
As if that's the standard for determining fidelity. M-Audio
THD + N: 0.0006%, less than $200.
http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/Audiophile192-focus.html
And that's a relatively inexpensive card... For a real thrill check out the
LynxTWO which I measured with up to 129 dB unweighted dynamic range:
http://www.pcavtech.com/soundcards/LynxTWO/index.htm
Post by Robert Morein
Post by Powell
Post by Robert Morein
The PC environment is electrically noisy, but onboard filtration
and PC board construction techniques successfully deal with it.
Agreed.
Post by Robert Morein
Post by Powell
Not so. I can drop the noise floor 4-7 dB on a PCI
sound card by using a power conditioner.
I don't believe this.
I think its possible in an odd way, depending on how the measurement is
made. Let's say that Powell's system has a ground loop in it, and the power
conditioner changes or eliminates the ground loop. Some of us eliminate
ground loops with rewiring and technical knowlege of grounding, and some of
us eliminate ground loops with $100's and/or $1000's worth of power
conditioners. Guess which category Powell is probably in? ;-(

Powell is probably also using an audio interface with an unbalanced input. I
think he's mentioned what his interface is, and given his consumer audio
blinders, he probably picked something whose inputs are gold-plated RCA
jacks. Most important to Powell: The gold plating.
Powell
2005-01-13 15:48:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arny Krueger
Post by Robert Morein
Post by Powell
Post by Robert Morein
Dynamic range 114 dB.
As if that's the standard for determining fidelity. M-Audio
THD + N: 0.0006%, less than $200.
http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/Audiophile192-focus.html
And that's a relatively inexpensive card... For a real thrill check
out the LynxTWO which I measured with up to 129 dB unweighted
http://www.pcavtech.com/soundcards/LynxTWO/index.htm
The manufacture lists dynamic range as 117 dB ( A-wtd).
Beyond poor metrology on your part how do you explain
this discrepancy?

And what about that antiquated web site, you're living
in the 90's. Perhaps Atkinson might loan you some of
his older sounds cards for testing. You'll be seeing
him soon in person, right, Arny :)?
Post by Arny Krueger
Post by Robert Morein
Post by Powell
Post by Robert Morein
The PC environment is electrically noisy, but onboard filtration
and PC board construction techniques successfully deal with it.
Agreed.
How would you know? You and Robert have zero
experiences with high-end powerline conditioners.
Two armchair commanders :).
Post by Arny Krueger
Post by Robert Morein
Post by Powell
Not so. I can drop the noise floor 4-7 dB on a PCI
sound card by using a power conditioner.
I don't believe this.
I think its possible...
Hehehe... right! "think"
Post by Arny Krueger
Powell is probably also using an audio interface with an
unbalanced input.
Yes, that’s true. Just prior to an actual recording.
Microphones were hot but attenuated and microphone
pre-amp was single-ended hot into sound card.
Everything plugged into isolated transformers. The
noise floor reading was taken from Sound Forge 7.0.
Post by Arny Krueger
I think he's mentioned what his interface is, and given
his consumer audio blinders, he probably picked something
whose inputs are gold-plated RCA jacks. Most important to
Powell: The gold plating.
Actually I’m more interested in investing in HD
camcorder technology and incorporating high-end
recordings of the spoken voice. There is a flood of
technical specifications/choices involved in mixing
various media formats together for a final outcome
on DVD. “Most important to Powell” it’s all just
business expense, Arny :).

Just purchased a 46" HD TV. Got-to-be-able to
clearly see my artwork :).
Arny Krueger
2005-01-13 15:54:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Powell
Post by Arny Krueger
Post by Powell
Post by Robert Morein
Dynamic range 114 dB.
As if that's the standard for determining fidelity. M-Audio
THD + N: 0.0006%, less than $200.
http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/Audiophile192-focus.html
And that's a relatively inexpensive card... For a real thrill check
out the LynxTWO which I measured with up to 129 dB unweighted dynamic
http://www.pcavtech.com/soundcards/LynxTWO/index.htm
The manufacture lists dynamic range as 117 dB ( A-wtd).
Beyond poor metrology on your part how do you explain
this discrepancy?
Powell given that you're being so unpleasant about this, you can ask
yourself that question as long as you want. There's a reasonable answer but
based on past experience, reasonable answers are wasted on people like you.
Powell
2005-01-13 21:22:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Powell
Post by Arny Krueger
Post by Powell
Post by Robert Morein
Dynamic range 114 dB.
As if that's the standard for determining fidelity. M-Audio
THD + N: 0.0006%, less than $200.
http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/Audiophile192-focus.html
And that's a relatively inexpensive card... For a real thrill check
out the LynxTWO which I measured with up to 129 dB unweighted dynamic
http://www.pcavtech.com/soundcards/LynxTWO/index.htm
The manufacture lists dynamic range as 117 dB ( A-wtd).
Beyond poor methodology on your part how do you explain
this discrepancy?
<snip quacking>
You get tripped-up anytime your methodology is
scrutinized.
Powell
2005-01-13 15:44:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Morein
Post by Powell
Post by Robert Morein
The PC environment is electrically noisy, but onboard filtration
and PC board construction techniques successfully deal with it.
Not so. I can drop the noise floor 4-7 dB on a PCI
sound card by using a power conditioner.
I don't believe this.
Why would I care, mr. No Experience?
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